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Thread: FBI Raid wrong house W/ a CHAINSAW.

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    FBI Raid wrong house W/ a CHAINSAW.

    http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/01/3...urg-apartment/

    “I just happened to glance over and saw this huge chainsaw ripping down the side of my door,” she explains. “And I was freaking out. I didn’t know what was going on.”
    I know that even if I heard people yelling "police!!" before cutting down my door w/ a ^%$# CHAINSAW I'd be putting rounds downrange. A person who has no reason too expect too be raided in the first place should consider the highly unusual method to be that of home invaders posing as police.

    I can't find words to voice my disgust over this incident, but I hope this lady gets rich from it.
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    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    I really fear that some day, some LEO's will be caught flat-footed (sorry, I couldn't help it!), by some perfectly decent, law-abiding citizens who happen to have an "arsenal" of about a half dozen guns, many of which can throw out some serious, lethal stuff. If the fellow and his wife happen to have excellent APPARENT reasons to use their weapons because "seconds count", and they decide to use those seconds by sending loads of heavy, deadly stuff downrange, the courts may find them completely blameless and the LEO's entirely at fault. I know...far-fetched... but not completely from fantasy land. The looney left would predictably call for (you guessed it) stricter gun control, but most reasonable Americans, including many in law enforcement would want to see more Fourth Amendment restrictions on how LEOs can rip into someone's private dwelling. When you think about it, my scenario is not so terribly unrealistic, but one I hope will never be seen.

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    Regular Member rscottie's Avatar
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    Could you even hear them yell FBI?

    Could you even hear them yell FBI over the chainsaw?

    Not only do we need to work on seriously curtailing No Knock Warrants, now we must also demand "No Chainsaw Warrants"?

    I hope she gets a good lawyer and goes after them.

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    If that were to happen to me , even if I did hear them yell FBI , I would never suspect them to be using a chain saw. I have never heard of them using anything but pry bars or door breaching loads in a shotgun. Thus I wouldn't believe it was any lawful entity and I would protect myself and mine.

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    Chainsaw? Pfffft! Starsky & Hutch woulda just kicked it in.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Notice what a lot of these egregious "no knock" stories have in common?

    The worst ones (like this one) are in states where the law makes it nearly impossible for law-abiding citizens to carry (or even own) self-defense firearms.

    Maryland, Massachusetts. California. Illinois. New York. See a pattern forming here?

    Why don't these no-knock fiascoes happen much in states like VA, NC, or PA (OK, they DO happen a lot in Philly, but that's not really part of PA)?

    Maybe it's because police in states that have a lot of lawfully-armed citizens KNOW that if they try this sort of crap, they'd be bet with .45 caliber mag dumps of 230 grain hollowpoints or a half-a dozen rounds of 00-buck from citizens who thought they were defending themselves from home-invasion thugs. Maybe it's because police in those states actually respect the civil rights and personal property of their citizens, and so they actually do their homework before going on raids?

    Maybe it's because states that severely restrict lawful ownership and carry view their citizens not so much as fellow human beings, but as chattel.

    I hope this woman gets VERY rich from this incident...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    I really fear that some day, some LEO's will be caught flat-footed (sorry, I couldn't help it!), by some perfectly decent, law-abiding citizens who happen to have an "arsenal" of about a half dozen guns, many of which can throw out some serious, lethal stuff. If the fellow and his wife happen to have excellent APPARENT reasons to use their weapons because "seconds count", and they decide to use those seconds by sending loads of heavy, deadly stuff downrange, the courts may find them completely blameless and the LEO's entirely at fault. I know...far-fetched... but not completely from fantasy land. The looney left would predictably call for (you guessed it) stricter gun control, but most reasonable Americans, including many in law enforcement would want to see more Fourth Amendment restrictions on how LEOs can rip into someone's private dwelling. When you think about it, my scenario is not so terribly unrealistic, but one I hope will never be seen.
    Completely unrealistic. Said fictional couple would be quite dead before the wrongful invasion was over.


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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Notice what a lot of these egregious "no knock" stories have in common?

    The worst ones (like this one) are in states where the law makes it nearly impossible for law-abiding citizens to carry (or even own) self-defense firearms.

    Maryland, Massachusetts. California. Illinois. New York. See a pattern forming here?

    Why don't these no-knock fiascoes happen much in states like VA, NC, or PA (OK, they DO happen a lot in Philly, but that's not really part of PA)?

    Maybe it's because police in states that have a lot of lawfully-armed citizens KNOW that if they try this sort of crap, they'd be bet with .45 caliber mag dumps of 230 grain hollowpoints or a half-a dozen rounds of 00-buck from citizens who thought they were defending themselves from home-invasion thugs. Maybe it's because police in those states actually respect the civil rights and personal property of their citizens, and so they actually do their homework before going on raids?

    Maybe it's because states that severely restrict lawful ownership and carry view their citizens not so much as fellow human beings, but as chattel.

    I hope this woman gets VERY rich from this incident...


    Well said!
    When only the police and other government officials are allowed to walk around armed, they get a holier than thou attitude and truly believe that the citizens life is worth less than theirs.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    If I heard/saw a chainsaw working on taking out my door I would either be putting a few rounds with my shotgun through the door or I would be grabbing my rifle with green-tipped 5.56 ammo to put through the door since I know those rounds are more likely to properly get through the door compared to my handgun. And I would NOT expect my government to be "serving" a warrant via a chainsaw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle
    I really fear that some day, some LEO's will be caught flat-footed (sorry, I couldn't help it!), by some perfectly decent, law-abiding citizens who happen to have an "arsenal" of about a half dozen guns, many of which can throw out some serious, lethal stuff. If the fellow and his wife happen to have excellent APPARENT reasons to use their weapons because "seconds count", and they decide to use those seconds by sending loads of heavy, deadly stuff downrange, the courts may find them completely blameless and the LEO's entirely at fault. I know...far-fetched... but not completely from fantasy land. The looney left would predictably call for (you guessed it) stricter gun control, but most reasonable Americans, including many in law enforcement would want to see more Fourth Amendment restrictions on how LEOs can rip into someone's private dwelling. When you think about it, my scenario is not so terribly unrealistic, but one I hope will never be seen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Completely unrealistic. Said fictional couple would be quite dead before the wrongful invasion was over.
    Maybe so, maybe no. History shows that if enough overwhelming firepower is directed at the invading enemy, they may be forced to withdraw, regroup, and begin a siege. A la Ruby Ridge and Waco.

    Not unrealistic at all, especially when you consider the total number of government employees conducting the average unconstitutional, illegal no-knock search is likely to be considerably less than the initial force at either of the aforementioned engagements.
    Last edited by ManInBlack; 02-02-2012 at 12:02 AM.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscottie View Post
    Could you even hear them yell FBI over the chainsaw?

    Not only do we need to work on seriously curtailing No Knock Warrants, now we must also demand "No Chainsaw Warrants"?

    I hope she gets a good lawyer and goes after them.
    Even if you heard them say FBI, would you actually believe that the FBI was taking a chainsaw to your door? I wouldn't.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    What Judge in their Right Mind would approve of using a Chainsaw to gain access to a residence to execute a Warrant?

    What Police Chief/Police Department in their Right Mind would approve of using a Chainsaw to gain access to a residence to execute a Warrant?

    HEADS NEED TO ROLL!

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    What Judge in their Right Mind would approve of using a Chainsaw to gain access to a residence to execute a Warrant?

    What Police Chief/Police Department in their Right Mind would approve of using a Chainsaw to gain access to a residence to execute a Warrant?

    HEADS NEED TO ROLL!
    I love how you capitalized "Right Mind." That answers your question. It has become a proper noun, indicating it is a title for whatever they deem it to be; it is no longer a necessarily accurate description as if a mere descriptive term.

    Sort of like "LEO."
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Notice what a lot of these egregious "no knock" stories have in common?

    The worst ones (like this one) are in states where the law makes it nearly impossible for law-abiding citizens to carry (or even own) self-defense firearms.

    Maryland, Massachusetts. California. Illinois. New York. See a pattern forming here?
    California law really doesn't prevent homeowners from being deadly within their homes. Californians may keep any number of rifles, handguns, and shotguns ready within their home or business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Why don't these no-knock fiascoes happen much in states like VA, NC, or PA (OK, they DO happen a lot in Philly, but that's not really part of PA)?
    The name Ryan Frederick ring a bell?
    Last edited by marshaul; 02-02-2012 at 02:45 PM.

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Dupe thread BTW.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...rong-home-raid

    This one has a better title though.

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    While your in your house sleeping, a chainsaw cuts through your door. You arm yourself ready to fire because you don't know whats going on.

    Maybe he is trying to save you? After all your were just sleeping.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHxeWwQGJkM
    Last edited by CTSurvivor; 02-02-2012 at 09:33 PM.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTSurvivor View Post
    While your in your house sleeping, a chainsaw cuts through your door. You arm yourself ready to fire because you don't know whats going on.

    Maybe he is trying to save you? After all your were just sleeping.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHxeWwQGJkM
    In that case I think the smoke alarms going off, flashing lights outside, acrid smell of smoke, and that unpleasant burning sensation where your hair used to be might be a tip-off
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    California law really doesn't prevent homeowners from being deadly within their homes. Californians may keep any number of rifles, handguns, and shotguns ready within their home or business.

    I was referring to carry law in CA, specifically. However, they DO have some REALLY stupid and restrictive laws prohibiting certain rifles and handguns, because they look mean...



    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    The name Ryan Frederick ring a bell?

    Ryan Frederick is a textbook case for what is wrong with LEA policies today. The police essentially hired two career criminals to go around breaking in to people's property looking for things they could charge the break-in victims for. The police allowed these robbers to take whatever hey wanted, and essentially gave them a license to steal. One of the police-backed robbers had a long-time grudge with Mr. Frederick. The police had even encouraged these thugs to break into Frederick's home a few days before the incident that put him in prison.

    The more you learn about this story, the more unbelievably criminal the Chesapeake PD looks.

    Ryan Frederick isn't in prison because he shot a good cop. Good cops would not have hired criminals to break into his house, pressured them to fabricate testimony to support a warrant, and then broken into his house while he was sleeping when they KNEW he wasn't actually doing what they accused him of.

    Chesapeake Detective Jarrod Shivers will be judged--by a MUCH "higher court".

    Hopefully Captain James Dunlap, Detective Kylie Roberts, the Prosecutors and Circuit Court Judge Marjorie A.T. Arrington have trouble sleeping at night, knowing they are responsible for the death of a fellow officer, and that they have sent an innocent man to prison, but somehow I doubt it...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Ryan Frederick is a textbook case for what is wrong with LEA policies today. The police essentially hired two career criminals to go around breaking in to people's property looking for things they could charge the break-in victims for. The police allowed these robbers to take whatever hey wanted, and essentially gave them a license to steal. One of the police-backed robbers had a long-time grudge with Mr. Frederick. The police had even encouraged these thugs to break into Frederick's home a few days before the incident that put him in prison.

    The more you learn about this story, the more unbelievably criminal the Chesapeake PD looks.

    Ryan Frederick isn't in prison because he shot a good cop. Good cops would not have hired criminals to break into his house, pressured them to fabricate testimony to support a warrant, and then broken into his house while he was sleeping when they KNEW he wasn't actually doing what they accused him of.

    Chesapeake Detective Jarrod Shivers will be judged--by a MUCH "higher court".

    Hopefully Captain James Dunlap, Detective Kylie Roberts, the Prosecutors and Circuit Court Judge Marjorie A.T. Arrington have trouble sleeping at night, knowing they are responsible for the death of a fellow officer, and that they have sent an innocent man to prison, but somehow I doubt it...
    +100

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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    What Judge in their Right Mind would approve of using a Chainsaw to gain access to a residence to execute a Warrant?

    What Police Chief/Police Department in their Right Mind would approve of using a Chainsaw to gain access to a residence to execute a Warrant?

    HEADS NEED TO ROLL!
    I doubt the judge who issued the warrant had no idea what tools the agents were going to use at the raid.
    Also, I dont know if you have ever seen a judge approve a warrant, buts its a really quick process.
    Usually the officer tells the judge what PC they have and the judge just has the LEO swear that the evidence in the written warrant is truthful . When the LEO responds "yes" the judge just signs the warrant and thats it.

    But I gotta tell you, its very common for LEO's to "fudge" the facts to gain PC for a warrant. I know people like to think that LEO's have "no reason to lie" but thast total ********.
    I have seen with my own eyes arrest and search warrants contain a large number of inconsistencies, errors and at times complete lies.

    One thing you all should know if you dont already, is that 99.9% of LEO's HATE to be thin that they may be wrong.
    And even when they do realize they may be wrong about something, its difficult for them to admit it.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229 View Post
    I doubt the judge who issued the warrant had no idea what tools the agents were going to use at the raid.
    Also, I dont know if you have ever seen a judge approve a warrant, buts its a really quick process.
    Usually the officer tells the judge what PC they have and the judge just has the LEO swear that the evidence in the written warrant is truthful . When the LEO responds "yes" the judge just signs the warrant and thats it.

    But I gotta tell you, its very common for LEO's to "fudge" the facts to gain PC for a warrant. I know people like to think that LEO's have "no reason to lie" but thast total ********.
    I have seen with my own eyes arrest and search warrants contain a large number of inconsistencies, errors and at times complete lies.

    One thing you all should know if you dont already, is that 99.9% of LEO's HATE to be thin that they may be wrong.
    And even when they do realize they may be wrong about something, its difficult for them to admit it.
    I have not read a non traffic police report (and only few of those) that hasn't had lies or misleading information or omission of facts that help the officer taint the minds of a judge or jury toward his actions as being justifiable.

    I also understand human nature to want to protect your own ass, but here's a novel idea to protect your ass, don't lie on the report and if they don't have solid PC or evidence then they shouldn't involve themselves. But of course then the higher ups in the department think you aren't doing your job. And no matter what cops claim, they are rated on the amount of arrests they make. This is why I say the policing system needs to change. It is simply a corrupt system that has little to do with justice.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    If I heard/saw a chainsaw working on taking out my door I would either be putting a few rounds with my shotgun through the door or I would be grabbing my rifle with green-tipped 5.56 ammo to put through the door since I know those rounds are more likely to properly get through the door compared to my handgun. And I would NOT expect my government to be "serving" a warrant via a chainsaw.
    That green-tip 5.56 goes through just about anything. I keep a side by side double magazine in my AR that is loaded with both green tip and hunting ballistic tips alternated. You never know what you will be shooting at (body armored or not) so why take the chance of having the wrong ammo in your rifle. My rule of thumb is anyone kicking in my door (or in this case using a chain saw) is my enemy and will be shot.

    I'm a good, law abiding person so there is no reason for any law enforcement to break down my door. So, anyone breaking down my door is automatically assumed to be evil scum deserving of death regardless of who they claim to be. I also do practice drills from different areas of my house to deal with this if it ever does happen. Got to always have a plan.

    John

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    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgregel View Post
    That green-tip 5.56 goes through just about anything. I keep a side by side double magazine in my AR that is loaded with both green tip and hunting ballistic tips alternated. You never know what you will be shooting at (body armored or not) so why take the chance of having the wrong ammo in your rifle. My rule of thumb is anyone kicking in my door (or in this case using a chain saw) is my enemy and will be shot.

    I'm a good, law abiding person so there is no reason for any law enforcement to break down my door. So, anyone breaking down my door is automatically assumed to be evil scum deserving of death regardless of who they claim to be. I also do practice drills from different areas of my house to deal with this if it ever does happen. Got to always have a plan.

    John
    Yes, the M855 ammo is wonderful. I prefer the Israeli IMI M855.
    Do you mean you have one mag with M855 and the other hunting rounds? Or you have every other bullet in one mag a M855 and a hunting tip?
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229 View Post
    Yes, the M855 ammo is wonderful. I prefer the Israeli IMI M855.
    Do you mean you have one mag with M855 and the other hunting rounds? Or you have every other bullet in one mag a M855 and a hunting tip?
    I alternate m855 and hunting rounds in the same magazine and have two magazines connected side by side. I've killed some wild boars with the Nosler rounds and it knocks them down pretty well with just one shot. I'll assume from my field tests that they would have the same if not better results if I had to defend myself with them. The M855 rounds turns most cover into just concealment and it takes level IV body armor to stop one. Most BGs will not bother with the heavy body armor but they have been know to use the lighter stuff. The point of impact difference out to fifty yards is negligible.

    I feel that this is a reasonable tactic unless anyone can give me a good reason to choose one or the other. I live in the country so I'm not supper concerned with over penetration of the M855s.

    John
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