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Thread: Carrying Near a College Campus

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    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
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    Carrying Near a College Campus

    Hey guys, I'm kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place. I've been trying to get into shape more, and want to start going for walks. Unfortunately, my apartment is right on the edge of campus. To get to downtown and anywhere that's not residential, I pretty much have to walk near campus. What I'm worried about is even thou it would be city streets and sidewalks, they (cops or campus security) will arrest me for carrying on campus. Are the sidewalks along campus (not IN, but along) city owned? Any insight into this? Should I go to somebody in the city government to get some clarification? Thanks for your help!

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I can tell you that I see a lot of high school students (in my area) smoking on the sidewalk adjacent to the high school, smoking on the campus being prohibited.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    Hey guys, I'm kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place. I've been trying to get into shape more, and want to start going for walks. Unfortunately, my apartment is right on the edge of campus. To get to downtown and anywhere that's not residential, I pretty much have to walk near campus. What I'm worried about is even thou it would be city streets and sidewalks, they (cops or campus security) will arrest me for carrying on campus. Are the sidewalks along campus (not IN, but along) city owned? Any insight into this? Should I go to somebody in the city government to get some clarification? Thanks for your help!
    Anytime you carry (within 1000 ft of a school) I would think you were subject to GFSZ laws. But hopefully, I could be mistaken, and the federal law does not pertain to a colleges.
    If it does, the only way I could see you getting around that, would be with a MISSOURI CCW permit.

    edit: GFSZ= federal gun free school zone
    Last edited by Freedom 1st; 02-03-2012 at 09:22 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    ...Should I go to somebody in the city government to get some clarification?...
    That's the best one I've heard all day so far!
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    If you want to know exactly who owns the street and/or sidewalk, check with the city's roads and ground division. The GFSZ does not apply to colleges, only to elementary and secondary schools.

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    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    I can tell you that I see a lot of high school students (in my area) smoking on the sidewalk adjacent to the high school, smoking on the campus being prohibited.
    Unfortunately, firearms are taken slightly more serious than smoking. Also, most of the time, smoking is regulated by the school, not laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom 1st View Post
    Anytime you carry (within 1000 ft of a school) I would think you were subject to GFSZ laws. But hopefully, I could be mistaken, and the federal law does not pertain to a colleges.
    If it does, the only way I could see you getting around that, would be with a MISSOURI CCW permit.

    edit: GFSZ= federal gun free school zone
    As bc.cruiser says below, I'm pretty much sure that doesn't come into effect here. Missouri has no laws regarding campus carry, they leave it to to university to regulate.

    Quote Originally Posted by bc.cruiser View Post
    If you want to know exactly who owns the street and/or sidewalk, check with the city's roads and ground division. The GFSZ does not apply to colleges, only to elementary and secondary schools.
    Would I just go to City Hall and request that information?

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    Do you have your CCW? Are you a student at the college? If you answered yes, no, then just go ahead and carry. It's perfectly legal.

    Quote Originally Posted by RSMO 571.107
    2. Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises.
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5710000107.htm

    Colleges are number 10, so well within the 1-17 guideline. I spoke with the lawyer who wrote the law specifically about this section, as I was in college at the time I got my permit. You can carry on campus just fine according to MO law. However if you are a student and they find out, you WILL be expelled.

    EDIT: added link to MO statute.

    EDIT2: I see you're in Warrensburg. That's actually where I started carrying, and where I went to college. Stinkin small, but a pretty nice town.
    Last edited by Oramac; 02-03-2012 at 01:35 PM.

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    Regular Member HighFlyingA380's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    Do you have your CCW? Are you a student at the college? If you answered yes, no, then just go ahead and carry. It's perfectly legal.



    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5710000107.htm

    Colleges are number 10, so well within the 1-17 guideline. I spoke with the lawyer who wrote the law specifically about this section, as I was in college at the time I got my permit. You can carry on campus just fine according to MO law. However if you are a student and they find out, you WILL be expelled.

    EDIT: added link to MO statute.

    EDIT2: I see you're in Warrensburg. That's actually where I started carrying, and where I went to college. Stinkin small, but a pretty nice town.
    CCW: pending. I'm getting Maine non-res, and they're backlogged like crazy. She said about a week and it'll be processed.

    I know that Missouri law allows it, that's why I believe that the university policies about carrying on campus and in vehicles is technically illegal, and unenforceable, since MO laws outrank them. And, since it's a state school, not private, they have no right to do so. I just don't want to take the chance. I'm thinking about writing a letter requesting to be exempt from their policy (which they state is allowed according to the student handbook).

    Yeah, it's pretty small but I live just west of campus (the old Collegiate Station), so to get anywhere I'm almost always bordering campus, unless I take a half mile detour each way.

    PS: What was your major?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    CCW: pending. I'm getting Maine non-res, and they're backlogged like crazy. She said about a week and it'll be processed.

    I know that Missouri law allows it, that's why I believe that the university policies about carrying on campus and in vehicles is technically illegal, and unenforceable, since MO laws outrank them. And, since it's a state school, not private, they have no right to do so. I just don't want to take the chance. I'm thinking about writing a letter requesting to be exempt from their policy (which they state is allowed according to the student handbook).
    I think it's not lawful too, but until we have someone act as the proverbial sacrificial lamb and be a test case, it'll never change.

    Yeah, it's pretty small but I live just west of campus (the old Collegiate Station), so to get anywhere I'm almost always bordering campus, unless I take a half mile detour each way.

    PS: What was your major?
    Good deal. I lived in the apartments off 13 right behind Break Time. I was Automotive Management, and also did a lot in the Business Administration area.
    Last edited by Oramac; 02-03-2012 at 04:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom 1st View Post
    Anytime you carry (within 1000 ft of a school) I would think you were subject to GFSZ laws. But hopefully, I could be mistaken, and the federal law does not pertain to a colleges.
    If it does, the only way I could see you getting around that, would be with a MISSOURI CCW permit.

    edit: GFSZ= federal gun free school zone
    A CCW endorsement or endorsement from any other State or political subdivision would be restricted by Federal law and the Safe Schools Act is a Federal law. RSMO 571.107.1(9) Any place where the carrying of a firearm is prohibited by federal law;

    There are provisions within that same section that would allow you to carry onto a campus with permission which would alleviate the State crime, but it in no way alleviates the Federal matter.

    These are examples of why our law needs to be changed to no restrictions and say: wherever said person has a lawful purpose to be.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 02-06-2012 at 10:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    A CCW endorsement or endorsement from any other State or political subdivision would be restricted by Federal law and the Safe Schools Act is a Federal law. RSMO 571.107.1(9) Any place where the carrying of a firearm is prohibited by federal law;

    There are provisions within that same section that would allow you to carry onto a campus with permission which would alleviate the State crime, but it in no way alleviates the Federal matter.

    These are examples of why our law needs to be changed to no restrictions and say: wherever said person has a lawful purpose to be.
    IIRC correctly, the fed GFSZ allows state laws to overide this act and MO CCW laws do that. Here is the ATF brochure. The GFSZ is not pre-emptive.

    Then here is the state CCW law on schools in MO; #10.

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    Simple terms

    To my understanding federal and state law.

    Missouri CCW permit/ Missouri school= legal to carry. According to state and federal law
    Az permit/ Missouri school= NOT legal to carry.
    Missouri permit/ Az school= NOT legal to carry.

    According to federal law you are only exmempt from the GFSZ laws, if you are licensced by the state in which the school is located.
    I only use Az as an example, you could insert any other state (besides MO) with same results
    Last edited by Freedom 1st; 02-06-2012 at 11:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbaron007 View Post
    IIRC correctly, the fed GFSZ allows state laws to overide this act and MO CCW laws do that. Here is the ATF brochure. The GFSZ is not pre-emptive.

    Then here is the state CCW law on schools in MO; #10.
    This is as I understand it as well. Also, the lawyer that wrote the MO law specifically told me it was ok when I asked him point blank about it.

    As always though, IANAL. Individual research and confirmation is recommended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom 1st View Post
    To my understanding federal and state law.

    Missouri CCW permit/ Missouri school= legal to carry. According to state and federal law
    Az permit/ Missouri school= NOT legal to carry.
    Missouri permit/ Az school= NOT legal to carry.

    According to federal law you are only exmempt from the GFSZ laws, if you are licensced by the state in which the school is located.
    I only use Az as an example, you could insert any other state (besides MO) with same results
    I agree with you. You have to have that State's CCW for it to be effective.
    Question...AZ perimit = AZ schools (but MO resident...does it make a difference?) Just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbaron007 View Post
    I agree with you. You have to have that State's CCW for it to be effective.
    Question...AZ perimit = AZ schools (but MO resident...does it make a difference?) Just curious.
    It seems to me that by Missouri accepting the Maine CCW permit for me, doesn't that mean they are indirectly authorizing it? Ie: ME non-res permit accepted by MO would allow carry on campus in MO? Maybe I'm just thinking too deep about it.

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    That is a very good question, and I agree that it should, however, the Federal law is worded "licensed by the state" not "authorized by the state."

    You are authorized to drive in my state with your out-of-state driver's license, but that doesn't mean my state is licensing you for the activity.
    Last edited by MAC702; 02-06-2012 at 03:15 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    It seems to me that by Missouri accepting the Maine CCW permit for me, doesn't that mean they are indirectly authorizing it? Ie: ME non-res permit accepted by MO would allow carry on campus in MO? Maybe I'm just thinking too deep about it.
    To my understanding the only way you would be exempt from federal law, concerning a Missouri school (GFSZ) would be with a valid Missouri permit.
    I heard a saying once or twice somewhere, " It doesn't have to make sense, it's the law."

    Originally Posted by Redbaron007
    I agree with you. You have to have that State's CCW for it to be effective.
    Question...AZ perimit = AZ schools (but MO resident...does it make a difference?) Just curious

    Good question, I would think you would be exempt from the federal law. But I couldn't speak to AZ state laws.

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    This crap is ridiculous. How on Earth did our country get to this state? Pisses me off that very few people use common sense anymore. I think we should all pool our money and buy a country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    This crap is ridiculous. How on Earth did our country get to this state? Pisses me off that very few people use common sense anymore. I think we should all pool our money and buy a country.
    Late response due to just reading this thread! But I like this idea!!!!
    Nothing better than a Glock.........except maybe another Glock!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DWCook View Post
    Late response due to just reading this thread! But I like this idea!!!!
    then send some to folks who do things like sponsor SB680
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbaron007 View Post
    IIRC correctly, the fed GFSZ allows state laws to overide this act and MO CCW laws do that. Here is the ATF brochure. The GFSZ is not pre-emptive.

    Then here is the state CCW law on schools in MO; #10.
    Please show me a court case or cases where State law has, does, and continues to exempt someone from Federal law as it pertains to firearms, be sure to cite the specific State and Federal laws that were involved.

    If that were even remotely possible States would pass laws to overturn every single Federal law on the books, which isn't the case at all. For example, the GCA of 1986, NICS checks, and other gun control laws at the Federal level would be non-existent; to my knowledge they are still in place. I had to fill out a Form 4473 recently, I had to file a Form 4 and pay a $200 tax stamp last year for a purchase. In fact, I do not know of a single State that does not have to follow those rules. Several have tried of late to make the claim that the Interstate Commerce Clause does not apply to products manufactured within the State that never leave the State.

    It exempst us from State level issues, not Federal.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 02-11-2012 at 04:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom 1st View Post
    To my understanding the only way you would be exempt from federal law, concerning a Missouri school (GFSZ) would be with a valid Missouri permit.
    I heard a saying once or twice somewhere, " It doesn't have to make sense, it's the law."

    Originally Posted by Redbaron007
    I agree with you. You have to have that State's CCW for it to be effective.
    Question...AZ perimit = AZ schools (but MO resident...does it make a difference?) Just curious

    Good question, I would think you would be exempt from the federal law. But I couldn't speak to AZ state laws.
    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyingA380 View Post
    It seems to me that by Missouri accepting the Maine CCW permit for me, doesn't that mean they are indirectly authorizing it? Ie: ME non-res permit accepted by MO would allow carry on campus in MO? Maybe I'm just thinking too deep about it.
    To my understanding, reciprocity means that you must abide by the laws of the State you find yourself within. So if you're in Missouri all of the same rules, exemptions, and protections that apply to us should apply to you. That would mean you would need to obtain written permission.

    Here's how I would ask it if it were to be sent up to my politicians and the MOAG.

    If someone holding a valid concealed carry permit issued by another State or political subdivision outside of Missouri enters the jurisdiction of Missouri, will the rules within RSMO 571.107 apply to that person in the same manner as they would as if that person held a valid concealed carry endorsement issued by Missouri? To be more specific on my question on RSMO 571.107, would the requirements for obtaining permission to carry upon specific premises be honored in the same fashion for a permit holder from another State as that of an endorsement holder from Missouri?

    RSMO 571.107
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000107.HTM
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 02-11-2012 at 04:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    Please show me a court case or cases where State law has, does, and continues to exempt someone from Federal law as it pertains to firearms, be sure to cite the specific State and Federal laws that were involved.


    It exempst us from State level issues, not Federal.
    The BATF has responded to questions regarding the GFSZA and they have clearly defined, the license must be from the state the school is located within or they will pursue charges. they make no bones about it at all.

    If you are in MO and violate it without a MO issued permit, you have no protections what so ever just as if you are in another state carrying on a MO permit, you are subject to it there as well.

    It is VERY CLEAR and there are really no questions about it at all. Realteach4u is SPOT ON.

    The only good news is the GFSZA is typically an adder charge and is subject to somewhat selective action. It would likely depend a lot more on the political climate than it would anything else, that by no means separates truth from reality and if your carrying in MO near schools, I would HIGHLY recommend you get a MO permit and be cautious, your freedom could depend upon it.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    I asked the attorney general about this, and he replied.

    Dear Mr. xxxxx,

    Thank you for your inquiry. Attorney General Koster has asked that I respond.

    Section 571.107 provides that even with a ccw, the permit holder is not authorized to carry concealed weapons into the places mentioned from Sections 571.107.1(1) to (17). If a permit holder enters any of these places, he may be denied entry or removed. The statute specifies that this is not a criminal act. However, if the permit holder refuses to leave, Section 571.101.2 provides for citations and fines upon subsequent violations. Section 571.101.2 further contemplates charges arising from the citation:


    So it is legal. you just can be asked to leave, and if the police/university is not well versed in the law, you might be tackled/attacked. I would carry though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    The BATF has responded to questions regarding the GFSZA and they have clearly defined, the license must be from the state the school is located within or they will pursue charges. they make no bones about it at all.

    If you are in MO and violate it without a MO issued permit, you have no protections what so ever just as if you are in another state carrying on a MO permit, you are subject to it there as well.

    It is VERY CLEAR and there are really no questions about it at all. Realteach4u is SPOT ON.

    The only good news is the GFSZA is typically an adder charge and is subject to somewhat selective action. It would likely depend a lot more on the political climate than it would anything else, that by no means separates truth from reality and if your carrying in MO near schools, I would HIGHLY recommend you get a MO permit and be cautious, your freedom could depend upon it.
    Well there's our first mistake....listening to the BATFE on their own rules, something they don't even understand about 90% of the time.
    LMTD, weren't you one of the folks that guided me that particular direction some time ago on the "license" conflict in the NICS exemption?

    Funny that the word license is mentioned in regards to the BATFE. Myself and several others went over this EXACT word with the BATFE in regards to the NICS exemption and they informed several that it was intended to mean Law Enforcement license issued by the State, yet they could not provide written proof of where it said such. Since Missouri does not issue a "license" to carry, merely an endorsement that can be placed upon a DL or State ID card, no such item in Missouri law fits in their definition. The words of those in the KC field office, not mine.

    So now that you've provided a conflicting statement from the BATFE I'll reiterate my previous statement of NOT listening to the BATFE on their own rules, something they don't even understand about 90% of the time. Because the BATFE was caught lying about this issue and were promptly called out about their so-called definition of the word "license" in regards to NICS checks and they have since discontinued the use of the word and now use "permits". Yet, the FBI who is responsible for NICS checks DOES NOT use the word permit at all and clearly defines the methods of obtaining a clearance for a Form 4473; NICS check, going through a State that acts as a Point of Contact (POC), or in States where it acts as POC for handguns but not long guns they use the State POC for handguns and NICS for long guns. Who do you think will be sending such a case to prosecution? It certainly isn't the BATFE. Chances are it will be the FBI, but the circumstances have to be right.

    Remember, the BATFE can institute rule changes with severe penalties attached without warning, without going through congress, and YOU can be forced to pay the penalty as a result of their ignorance.

    So look at this for a moment and decide for yourself if you actually trust what you're "told" verbally by the BATFE, never trust what you're "told" verbally from them, it's dumb. If it's not in writing somewhere then it isn't true and it simply does not exist. Always ask for where to find the information for yourself and where to find the definitions of the applicable terms. (been there and done that, it sucks)

    Form 4473 NICS exemption under Question 23 states what is in 27 CFR § 478.102(d). The use of license only applies to a FFL holder, the rest is "permit". http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

    The actual 27 CFR 478.102(d) from justia.com
    http://law.justia.com/cfr/title27/27....3.6.1.12.html

    The FBI's rendition of the NICS exemption under "NICS Background Checks":
    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nic...ion/fact-sheet

    Differences are present. So again, DO NOT trust what the BATFE "tells" you verbally. None of it can ever be taken as factual and it should never be considered to be truthful. In many cases they'll feed you a line of bull just to get you off the phone.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 02-12-2012 at 12:13 AM.

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