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Thread: stopped by off duty deputy at Wal-Mart

  1. #1
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    stopped by off duty deputy at Wal-Mart

    I was at Wal-Mart in Jackson County WV last night with a friend to pick up some 9mm. I was open carrying my G19 in its holster. We went back to sporting goods where a man with a young boy was talking to the cashier. The cashier stopped to assist me, I purchased my ammo, thanked the man and proceeded to leave when I heard an "excuse me!" I turned around and the man (in civilian clothes) had pulled out his wallet and flashed a badge at me. He wanted to see my concealed weapon permit and some ID. (note: you do not need a permit of any kind to OC in WV)

    Regardless, I complied and gave him my papers. He also wanted me to remove my weapon from his holster. I slowly took it out, dropped the mag and took the round out of the chamber and handed it to him muzzle down and in slide lock. He called it in, ran my info and the serial on the gun. He kept saying how "odd" and "unusual" it was to see someone OC'ing. When he hung up I asked "Are you satisfied?" He said "Yes" and set my weapon on the counter. With his permission I reloaded my weapon and secured it in my holster.

    I started to leave and he said "woah I'm not done with you yet!" I asked if I was being detained, to which he replied "No, I'm still checking you out" I asked again if I was being detained and he said "No" I asked if I was free to go and he again told me "No" I asked to see his badge again so I could get his name. He responded with "You damn sure can!" I can kick myself so hard for being unable to recall the name on the badge, but he was a Jackson County Deputy Sheriff. So I stood there and waited with him, his son, my friend and the cashier in very awkward and uncomfortable silence until his phone rang back and they told him I was indeed a law abiding citizen. I sure didn't feel like one during all this. I felt like I had done something wrong when I had not. It was an awful feeling. He told me I could go and to "stay out of trouble" I gathered my things and we left.


    Is this a normal interaction with LE especially those who are off duty for people who OC? It was my first. I hope it's my last.

  2. #2
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Not only is it not normal, you waived the 4th Amendment for what you thought would be some convenience. Based on the actions of the deputy you described, whether or not you would have saved any time is debatable.

    But at the very least I would file a complaint with the sherriff's office.
    Last edited by SovereignAxe; 02-03-2012 at 06:05 PM.
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  3. #3
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    "you waived the 4th Amendment for what you thought would be some convenience. "


    How so?

  4. #4
    Regular Member ThatOneChick's Avatar
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    I'm sorry you had to go through that situation. I've encountered officers in civilian clothing before and it's frustrating. I, myself, am more weary of a civilian dressed officer because it's real easy to produce a fake badge (Look at what Bundy did). If I'm ever stopped by someone claiming to be an officer without all the bells and whistles of a uniform, marked vehicle, etc., I would request to have an on-duty officer show up. For all you know, it could be some faker and he has your address, name, etc.

    Also, if he says you're not detained but you're not free to go--you are being detained.

    Best of luck to you if you do file a complaint which I highly recommend you do. And, here's to hoping something like this doesn't happen again.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Were you recording the incident?

    If you are not being detained, walk away! If the officer tells you that you are being detained ask what his RAS is and then say nothing.

    In this situation, you had no reason to provide your permit to him. You were OCing. You were not in the commission of a crime. The officer had no RAS, but you let him run right over you.

    How old was the officer's son? I fin it odd that he was so worried about your weapon, but not worried about his son being in the middle of a possible confrontation.
    I'm glad everything worked itself out but you might want to brush up on your rights.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 02-03-2012 at 07:02 PM.
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  6. #6
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedycat View Post
    "you waived the 4th Amendment for what you thought would be some convenience. "


    How so?
    Because the 4th amendment protects you from having to submit to a search (which is what that was when you gave him your papers. When he ran your gun's serial #, that was another search you didn't have to consent to) unless you have committed, or if there is RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion) that you have committed a crime.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

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  7. #7
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    WOW you were a lot nicer then I would have been. Need to learn to tell them to go pound sand.

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    I had my phone with me. I really should have recorded it. We were in public. He wouldn't have been able to do anything about it. I was understandably nervous and wasn't really thinking clearly. I still managed to go home that night without a problem. I didn't want to get tackled or anything. Now that I'm home and have read some responses, I wish he had tried to tackle me.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    Because the 4th amendment protects you from having to submit to a search (which is what that was when you gave him your papers. When he ran your gun's serial #, that was another search you didn't have to consent to) unless you have committed, or if there is RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion) that you have committed a crime.

    I felt coerced into providing that information. He was rather intimidating.

  10. #10
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedycat View Post
    I felt coerced into providing that information. He was rather intimidating.
    oh I totally understand. that's what the police do. I've never had to deal with cops in this situation so I couldn't really tell you how I'd handle it, but probably not much better. I can tell you that TN law says I must display my permit when asked by the law, so you've got that on me. But as for the running of my gun's serial number, I'd like to think I'd ask if I'm being detained/for RAS before I unholster my weapon, as the safest place for it is in the holster. If the officer feels unsafe around my holstered firearm and he's not detaining me or doesn't think that I've committed a crime, he needs to leave.

    That being said, we can all Monday morning QB this all day, as you asked what we thought about it. What we'd do is another story. My advice to you is to know your rights, WV law, and get a voice recorder (I need to get one myself) so that you'll be better prepared to deal with this situation should it arise again.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

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  11. #11
    Regular Member G30Mike's Avatar
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    I would have definitely made him dispatch a uniformed officer. I don't trust anyone wearing clothes like mine. I would have simply stated that I could care less about his ID and until a uniformed officer was called to the scene and if I wasn't being detained, that he have a good evening. Anything that would have ensued after that would be purely on him. All of this while videoing of course.
    Badges can be faked, and I'm definitely not letting anyone in plain clothes alleviate me of my weapon, I don't care if his "badge" says FBI, CIA, DEA, or lowly deputy.
    As was mentioned before, the guy was an idiot for having you unload and then reload your weapon right there in the store, not to mention having a confrontation with you with his young son right there. Completely unnecessary and irresponsible of him.
    Id file a complaint for sure!
    Good luck to you.
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  12. #12
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Assuming he made a call to somewhere official, and in an official capacity, there should be a record of it. Make a records request being as specific as possible, then try and make a personal appointment to see his Captain. Drop by the precinct if you can, it's a wonder what a face-to-face meeting with the public can accomplish with the people who are employed to serve the public.

    Here's to hoping that the name of the Deputy pops in to your memory.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    If some dude in plain clothes flashed a badge at me, and told me to unholster my firearm, the FIRST thing I would do would be get his name and badge number, and ask him to hold on a minute. The SECOND thing I woudl do is pull out my phone and dial 911 and have his name and badge number verified, letting the dispatcher know that I was being harassed by this officer, and request a uniformed officer to respond to the scene. Of course, my voice recorder would have ALREADY been rolling, because any time I go into a WalMart carrying, I am "rolling tape"...

    I would NOT have touched my firearm. I would have told him that if he felt uncomfortable with it on my hip in his presence, he had two options: he could leave, or he could take it out himself and I would not resist, but I did not consent to my property being seized.

    Second, until a uniformed officer showed up, I would NEVER relinquish my DL, CC permit or any other form of ID to a dude in plain clothes who was flashing a badge. It could be a fake badge. He could be a psycho. He could have been in the process of holding up the store, and I walked in on him. I don't know.

    If he told me I wasn't being detained, and I was done with my business transaction, I would bid him a "good evening" and turn around and walk away. If he tried anything stupid like tackling me, I would be contacting my lawyer ASAP to subpoena the WalMart security cameras.

    In WV, you are required to show your ID and CC permit to an officer of the law if their request is lawful. Since OC is legal WITHOUT A PERMIT or LICENSE in WV, the legality of his request is dubious at best. You don't need a permit to OC, and since the reason he was hassling you was because he could obviously see your gun, he couldn't claim it was "concealed". So the "stop" was not legitimate under WV law.

    You should ALWAYS write detailes like officer names, Affiliated agency, and badge numbers down about such an incident (DURING if you can, but ASAP after if necessary). Our memories for such details are often unreliable due to the excitement and adrenalin (and the feeling of coersion and intimidation) do a small notepad and pen might be something to consider as part of your "every day carry" gear.

    Considering that this "cop" had his son with him, I think this "stop" had a LOT more to do with him showing off for his kid than any concern he had that you might be a criminal of some sort. This is BAD for two reasons--1) he KNOWS the law, and yet he intentionally violated your rights, so he's a BAD cop, and 2) he is setting a TERRIBLE example for his kid, by showing him that it is OK to buly people, flaut the law, and intimidate and coerce people for your own amusement.

    I hope that a formal complaint is filed on this one, and I hope the victim lodges a formal report with WVCDL. The rogue LEOs and LEAs in WV will not stop this sort of behavior unless and until they get hit in the pocketbook...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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  14. #14
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Assuming he made a call to somewhere official, and in an official capacity, there should be a record of it. Make a records request being as specific as possible, then try and make a personal appointment to see his Captain.

    IF this particular rogue LEO was a "deputy", the proper superior officer to address would be his Sheriff. Don't mess around--go STRAIGHT to the top...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  15. #15
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    IF this particular rogue LEO was a "deputy", the proper superior officer to address would be his Sheriff. Don't mess around--go STRAIGHT to the top...
    I was in the frame of mind more along the lines of "go to his company commander" rather than "go to the General of the Army." While the Sheriff may do the hiring and firing, most of the discipline comes from lower on the chain of command. (Depending on size of the office, of course. I suspect Sheriff Andy didn't have too many levels between himself and Barney.)
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 02-03-2012 at 10:33 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    Because the 4th amendment protects you from having to submit to a search (which is what that was when you gave him your papers. When he ran your gun's serial #, that was another search you didn't have to consent to) unless you have committed, or if there is RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion) that you have committed a crime.
    Fourth Amendment case law on detentions does not protect from having to submit to seizure (of person or belongings) or search. Unfortunately, all it does it set you up to win a legal point in a suppression hearing or lawsuit. The cop can pretty much do whatever he wants; failure to submit can be dangerous. It might be worth the danger, but it can be dangerous.

    Read the last paragraph of Terry v Ohio. Notice that it says each case will have to be determined by a court on its own facts. Meaning, its the courts that decide things after the encounter. If the cop was wrong, he's actionable after the detention, if at all.

    The 4A only provides so much protection. In this case, mainly deterence. But, not all cops are deterred.

    One can politely, verbally refuse consent to an encounter or a search. But, if the cop pushes it, refusing to submit can be dangerous.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    One can politely, verbally refuse consent to an encounter or a search. But, if the cop pushes it, refusing to submit can be dangerous.

    "I do not consent to having my personal property seized, but I will not resist your actions."

    But there is NO WAY I would put my hand anywhere NEAR my safely and securely holstered firearm if posed with a power-tripping rogue cop like this one. I don't need to give him an excuse to taze, punch, or shoot me. I'll raise my hands, and let him take it out, if he can figure out how to operate a Serpa CQC fromthe front, crossdraw.

    Hopefully he doesn't have an ND and shoot someone in the process...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  18. #18
    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    Hopefully he doesn't have an ND and shoot someone in the process...
    That is also what I was worried about. Here this guy is disarming a citizen in the middle of a Walmart. I wonder how freaked out the staff and other customers were seeing this. It also makes the OCer look like a bad guy in their eyes when they see this happening. This is bad all around.
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  19. #19
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    I'm a little surprised nobody has told our new member "welcome" yet (welcome!),
    also that nobody has yet mentioned a few standard bits of advice:

    1) carry sterile. Since you don't need a license to OC, leave it in the car. Ditto for your driver's license or other ID, unless you're planning to buy something they'll need to check your age for. Then there's no way a rogue cop can coerce or trick you into handing it over, and no way they can forcibly search you & take it.

    2) watch the videos at www.flexyourrights.org They're also available on YouTube.

    3) watch the video on YouTube titled "Don't Talk to Police". That's the 48-minute long version, & there are shorter part 1 & part 2 versions that all amount to the same thing. Part 1 is a law professor talking at warp speed, telling the class all the reasons they shouldn't talk to cops ["god bless the 5th Amendment"], part 2 is a law student who used to be a LEO basically confirming everything the professor says.

    There's a thread over on the WI forum that has a lot of helpful info for a new carrier. Much is WI-specific, but there's a good deal of it that's general rights-related.

    For example, you were arrested.
    Physical seizure of person by arresting officer or submission to officer's authority and control is necessary to constitute an "arrest."
    Thompson v. Boston Pub. Co., 285 Mass. 344, 189 N.E. 210, 213.
    It is a restraint however slight, on another's liberty to come and go.
    Turney v. Rhodes, 42 Ga.App. 104, 155 S.E. 112.

    In that thread there's a link to the Don't Talk to Cops video in large bold red letters, right above a list of other useful videos, many from FlexYourRights.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 02-04-2012 at 03:45 AM.
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  20. #20
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    Talking To Police Cannot Help You--Indiana Court

    A recent case in Indiana highlights the principle that talking to police cannot help you.

    Those who watched the video on YouTube about not talking to police by Regent University Law School Prof. James Duane already know that exculpatory statements made to police will not be allowed at trial, prohibited by the hearsay rule.

    But, below is an excerpt that highlights how talking to police during a detention isn't going to help much either. Although, it may eventually be part of the overall picture that satisfies the cop--and it might not if he's looking to harass a personal defense supporter--the cop is under no obligation whatsoever to accept anything you say as true.

    ...When Sergeant Cothran was speaking with McCaa for between thirty seconds and one minute, McCaa offered a seemingly plausible explanation for his erratic driving and exhibited no outward signs of impairment. A reasonable person, however, would have been entitled to doubt McCaa's story. First, although plausible, the story was undeniably self-serving and therefore suspect. We will not adopt the rule that reasonable suspicion vanishes as soon as a suspect offers a plausible, innocent explanation for his seemingly criminal behavior...

    Full opinion here: http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions...1301201cjb.pdf

    I found out about it by checking a great legal blog here: http://www.fourthamendment.com/blog/
    Last edited by Citizen; 02-04-2012 at 04:25 PM.

  21. #21
    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Omg....you screwed up

    I agree with most people when I say I'm sad you had to go through that. But you just reenforced this officers feeling he is above the law, he can harass citizens at will.

    What will happen if the next person he jacks up on or off duty for doing nothing ILLEGAL doesn't want to roll over like you did.

    He needs TRAINING in the US Constitusion and how to do his job.

    Voice recorder, call 911 telling them you would like an officer or better yet record yourself asking if you are being detained and walk away. If he uses his tazer you just became a millionaire as you DID NOTHING WRONG.

  22. #22
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Suggest you do a lot more reading and preparation before OC-ing again, pronto.

    Print out relevant documents
    Carry sterile
    Run a recorder
    Lawyer on speed dial
    Retention holster, practice retention drills on-going
    SA or situational awareness drills

    You want to avoid enabling these off-duty yahoos from thinking it's ok to abrogate 2A rights by giving in as you did. You certainly don't want to be yielding to a plain clothes guy with a (possibly fake) badge without checking with 911 and getting a uniformed officer to the scene. Since that 'creates a hassle' for the yahoo, it also has, imo, deterrent value.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    Suggest you do a lot more reading and preparation before OC-ing again, pronto.
    I woulda said the same thing, but something occurred to me.

    He's a new poster. OK. Great. Glad to have him. (No, really.) As a new poster, one might think he's unknowledgeable. Fine. Easy enough conclusion.

    But! He's apparently been reading the forum for some time. He knew enough to repeatedly ask whether he was being detained. Not once. Repeatedly.

    This next part is not particularly a criticism; I'm just laying out conclusions: So, I'm thinking he also already knew about the right to silence and the right to refuse consent to searches and seizures and why to exercise them. Maybe he discounted it in his earlier reading. Maybe he thought we were nuts or extremists for promoting exercising rights during all police encounters. I don't know. But, I doubt he didn't know about it.
    Last edited by Citizen; 02-04-2012 at 05:10 PM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I woulda said the same thing, but something occurred to me.
    ... I'm thinking he also already knew about the right to silence and the right to refuse consent to searches and seizures and why to exercise them....
    I just think he was caught flat-footed, never took the prompting to run a recorder and exhibited a type of stage-fright reaction. Forgot everything, tongue-tied, intimidated.

    Hah, maybe this should be part of training. The tunnel-vision effect of being stopped by LEOs.
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  25. #25
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    Hah, maybe this should be part of training. The tunnel-vision effect of being stopped by LEOs.
    No maybe about it, role play should be in our training just as it is, or should be, in theirs.

    My town cop swears that he'll arrest me if I take steps to prevent his extra-legal sniff and peek.

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