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Thread: stopped by off duty deputy at Wal-Mart

  1. #51
    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    The fact that the badge flasher with his child in-tow decided to initiate a non-response generated confrontation with an orderly citizen simply because he was wearing a holstered firearm -without a prior request for uniformed back-up assistance - indicates the absence of any perception of the presence of a threat on his part. In other words - this was a "personal matter" and not the exercise of official authority.

    This "LEO" should be scheduled for immediate remedial procedural training in order to ensure that such behavior does not further escalate. He should also have a record of this incident placed in his file. He irresponsibly placed himself, his child, WM staff, the OP, and the general public in danger resulting from the needless encounter and handling of a loaded firearm.

  2. #52
    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Questions born of ignorance: Would you even be required to respond to such an individual (off-duty, civilian clothing, child in tow)?

    What would be the most likely outcome if you just gave him/her the "What? Are you stupid?" look and walked away?

    I know that it would most probably vary from state to state, but just what authority, if any, does such an off-duty LEO have in the absence of criminal activity or even RAS?

    I would also have to see more identification than just a badge flashed at me. There are too many realistic-looking fake badges out there for me to rely on just that. (remind me to tell y'all of the time I flashed a badge at an Army CID agent)

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Questions born of ignorance: Would you even be required to respond to such an individual (off-duty, civilian clothing, child in tow)?

    What would be the most likely outcome if you just gave him/her the "What? Are you stupid?" look and walked away?

    I know that it would most probably vary from state to state, but just what authority, if any, does such an off-duty LEO have in the absence of criminal activity or even RAS?

    I would also have to see more identification than just a badge flashed at me. There are too many realistic-looking fake badges out there for me to rely on just that. (remind me to tell y'all of the time I flashed a badge at an Army CID agent)
    I would like to know the answer to this too.

    And I'm reminding you What's the story?

  4. #54
    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Questions born of ignorance: Would you even be required to respond to such an individual (off-duty, civilian clothing, child in tow)?

    What would be the most likely outcome if you just gave him/her the "What? Are you stupid?" look and walked away?

    I know that it would most probably vary from state to state, but just what authority, if any, does such an off-duty LEO have in the absence of criminal activity or even RAS?

    I would also have to see more identification than just a badge flashed at me. There are too many realistic-looking fake badges out there for me to rely on just that. (remind me to tell y'all of the time I flashed a badge at an Army CID agent)
    Well if you walk your dogs (off-leash) in a certain Kalifornia park you will get tased in the back if you walk away.....lol

  5. #55
    Founder's Club Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    I would not only file a complaint with his department, but I would also talk to someone higher up at Wally World to make them aware that the officers actions put other people in the store at risk by having you disarm yourself. He obviously was not affraid of you or he never would have had you touch your firearm. If they could be persuaded, a call from the management to the sheriff would hold much more weight than just your word.

    Good luck.

    TBG
    Article 1, Section 11, #1 of the Nevada Constitution: Every citizen has the right to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use ..

    Life member GOA and NRA. Member SAF, NAGR, & former member NVFAC.

  6. #56
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    I would like to know the answer to this too.

    And I'm reminding you What's the story?
    Me too, as I already asked these questions and have not received a response.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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  7. #57
    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    sfcretired...

    ok, i've grabbed a brew, sat down in my bestest comfortable chair, and am awaiting a good CID story w/all the juicy details...and i will trade my 'OSI' encounters w/you in return...

    wabbit

  8. #58
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    Red face Stopped by off duty

    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    sfcretired...

    ok, i've grabbed a brew, sat down in my bestest comfortable chair, and am awaiting a good CID story w/all the juicy details...and i will trade my 'OSI' encounters w/you in return...

    wabbit
    As a former Army Criminal Investigator, I also would be interested in hering the outcome of your encounter !

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker
    Dam, my wife shoots as good as me.
    I WOULDN'T DARE HIT HER SHE WOULD SHOOT ME.
    Armed people are very polite to each other.
    I've found that unarmed people are generally polite to armed people too.

    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker
    Well if you walk your dogs (off-leash) in a certain Kalifornia park you will get tased in the back if you walk away.
    Because that's such a dangerous activity that the officers felt threatened, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
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  10. #60
    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Armed people are very polite to each other.
    I've found that unarmed people are generally polite to armed people too.


    Because that's such a dangerous activity that the officers felt threatened, right?
    I do believe the story said they were the breed feared more than the pitbull.....they said they were the dreaded "CHUWAWA" breed. I can certianly understand where tasing the owner is warrented to show the blood thirsty yappers who is boss.

  11. #61
    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    For those of you who want "The Rest of the Story" about badge-flashing:

    As a SP4 (many, many years ago), I drew CQ (Charge of Quarters for you civilians) at my unit. My Company Commander emphasized to me that no one was to enter the barracks except assigned personnel.

    My shift had just started when this individual in civilian clothing walked into the orderly room, flashed a badge at me, and announced, "I'm Whateverinellhisnamewas and I'm CID. I'm going to go in the barracks to talk to Pvt. Snuffy."

    "Sir, I'm sorry, but you are not, by order of my commander, going in the barracks."

    Flash of badge again and same statement.

    I had taken a part-time job several days before with a firm called Southern Security and they had issued me the most impressive badge I've ever seen. I yanked the thing out of my pocket, threw it on the desk, and announced, "And I'm SFCRetired of Southern Security and you're not going in my barracks!!"

    Now, with all due apologies to Paul Harvey, you know the rest of the story. And, no, he didn't go in the barracks.

  12. #62
    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    One additional badge-flashing comment: I've had "bounty hunters" flash official-looking badges at me while they were dressed "tacti-cool" and trying to make you think they were law enforcement. We all know about the "concealed carry" badges and I think there are far more out there.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that in a situation such as OP encountered, I would want to see some other form of identification. Without it, I would be dialing the non-emergency number and requesting the presence of a uniformed officer.

    Also, second the notion of contacting the Wal Mart district manager (they seem to be more responsive than corporate) and letting him/her know of this encounter. Same with contacting the LEA to which the "deputy" is assigned.

  13. #63
    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    thanks for sharing SFCRetired, my OSI encounter occurred while i was in the AF stationed on a small turkish base outside Ankara and the turkish NCOIC came running up rattling quickly in turkish stating this gentleman in civilian clothes was at the gate flashing a badge demanding to enter the compound.

    i walked over in my best blue jeans, said hello to this OSI agent and another well dressed gentlemen in civilian dress who demanded entrance to our secure classified facility. I politely, w/o identifying myself, asked who everyone was and was told the other gentleman was a two star and the OSI agent and driver were his security detail and they insisted they were allowed on site. putting my best diplomatic NCO smile on, i said sorry, no they didn't have permission to enter this compound as it was a turkish facility.

    the two star got out of the vehicle as did the agent and proceeded to attempt to walk through the gate at which time the turkish guards looked at me and i shook my head and the guards proceeded to point their automatic firearms at the men. at that time i told them in my best stern NCO voice to please get back in their vehicle and leave the area or my hands would be tied as the turkish military would be forced to act to this intrusion of their installation. begrudgingly they climbed back into their vehicle and left the area.

    i went inside in time to receive the call from the local OSI commander, personal friend who i played racketball with every other day, asking me what was going on...told him and he said good job as the visiting two star was being a pain in the arse at all the local installations as was his security detail. my commander told me later while the US base commander in Ankara was miffed the two star couldn't see our facility he understood the general didn't follow appropriate protocal for access. my commander said he reminded the base commander he hadn't been invited to the site either.

    again thanks for sharing

    wabbit
    Last edited by ncwabbit; 02-13-2012 at 07:35 PM.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    A recent case in Indiana highlights the principle that talking to police cannot help you.

    Those who watched the video on YouTube about not talking to police by Regent University Law School Prof. James Duane already know that exculpatory statements made to police will not be allowed at trial, prohibited by the hearsay rule.

    But, below is an excerpt that highlights how talking to police during a detention isn't going to help much either. Although, it may eventually be part of the overall picture that satisfies the cop--and it might not if he's looking to harass a personal defense supporter--the cop is under no obligation whatsoever to accept anything you say as true.

    ...When Sergeant Cothran was speaking with McCaa for between thirty seconds and one minute, McCaa offered a seemingly plausible explanation for his erratic driving and exhibited no outward signs of impairment. A reasonable person, however, would have been entitled to doubt McCaa's story. First, although plausible, the story was undeniably self-serving and therefore suspect. We will not adopt the rule that reasonable suspicion vanishes as soon as a suspect offers a plausible, innocent explanation for his seemingly criminal behavior...

    Full opinion here: http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions...1301201cjb.pdf

    I found out about it by checking a great legal blog here: http://www.fourthamendment.com/blog/
    the VASt majority of the time people talk to the police and it helps them, the case never GETS to trial

    that's why selection bias based ideas like this are so tainted.

    there are cases of friggin' serial killers who because they talked to cops were able to get away with committing crimes for years.

    iow, they allayed suspicion, the cops moved on to different suspects, etc.


    and that's GUILTY people

    most innocents who talk to police , will never get arrested in the first place (note: most!!!. it is not unusual for innocent people to get arrested. no way around that. sometimes), so the issue of what is admissable at TRIAL is a moot point

    i was stopped at gunpoint and talked to police. talking to them helped establish i was not the suspect and i was freed

    there are other benefits besides TRIAL benefits

    MOST of the time people are at trial and they talked ot police, are naturally going to be cases where it DID NOT help them

    the vast majority of people cops talk to never go to trial, and are never even arrested. so, again, this takes a select group (see: selection bias) that naturally were almost certainly HARMED and extrapolates an across the board conclusion

    very shoddy reasoning
    Last edited by PALO; 02-14-2012 at 05:56 AM.

  15. #65
    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    the VASt majority of the time people talk to the police and it helps them, the case never GETS to trial

    that's why selection bias based ideas like this are so tainted.

    there are cases of friggin' serial killers who because they talked to cops were able to get away with committing crimes for years.

    iow, they allayed suspicion, the cops moved on to different suspects, etc.


    and that's GUILTY people

    most innocents who talk to police , will never get arrested in the first place (note: most!!!. it is not unusual for innocent people to get arrested. no way around that. sometimes), so the issue of what is admissable at TRIAL is a moot point

    i was stopped at gunpoint and talked to police. talking to them helped establish i was not the suspect and i was freed

    there are other benefits besides TRIAL benefits

    MOST of the time people are at trial and they talked ot police, are naturally going to be cases where it DID NOT help them

    the vast majority of people cops talk to never go to trial, and are never even arrested. so, again, this takes a select group (see: selection bias) that naturally were almost certainly HARMED and extrapolates an across the board conclusion

    very shoddy reasoning
    If it is shoddy reasoning, then why does every lawyer worth his/her salt tell you not to talk to the police? FWIW, nothing you say to police can be used in court to help you, but it can, and will, be used against you.

    Personally, I will only say enough to determine whether or not I am free to go. Other than that, I have nothing to say other than, "I want a lawyer."

  16. #66
    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Personally, I will only say enough to determine whether or not I am free to go. Other than that, I have nothing to say other than, "I want a lawyer."
    "I want a GOOD lawyer".

    There I fixed it for you.....lol

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    OP should have kicked the off duty cop in the balls

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    <snip> I was stopped at gunpoint and talked to police. Talking to them helped establish I was not the suspect and I was freed <snip>
    Is this a different instance in addition to getting 'proned out' that you claimed in a different thread?
    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    the VASt majority of the time people talk to the police and it helps them, the case never GETS to trial

    the vast majority of people cops talk to never go to trial, and are never even arrested. so, again, this takes a select group (see: selection bias) that naturally were almost certainly HARMED and extrapolates an across the board conclusion
    Where do you find the data to indicate that your opinion on this matter is correct?
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    Where do you find the data to indicate that your opinion on this matter is correct?
    Look up the definition of the word opinion, and you'll discover that an opinion needs no data (not even a single datum). That's what makes it an opinion! IOW, everybody has the right to be incorrect in the eyes of another - or a multitude of others - without them screaming, "WHERE'S YOUR PROOF?!?". Pax...
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    Look up the definition of the word opinion, and you'll discover that an opinion needs no data (not even a single datum). That's what makes it an opinion! IOW, everybody has the right to be incorrect in the eyes of another - or a multitude of others - without them screaming, "WHERE'S YOUR PROOF?!?". Pax...
    Are you answering for him? What do you think of his opinion?
    So, his opinion is baseless. Okay.

    It is more fruitful to forge opinions based upon facts, than to create them out of whole cloth.
    Last edited by wrightme; 02-14-2012 at 08:52 PM.
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  22. #72
    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    Are you answering for him? What do you think of his opinion?
    So, his opinion is baseless. Okay.

    It is more fruitful to forge opinions based upon facts, than to create them out of whole cloth.
    No, I am not answering for him, I am just supporting his right to have - and voice - his (perhaps unsubstantiated) opinion.

    I think his opinion is probably based upon his personal experiences with LEO's, and they may have (at least for the most part) actually been positive. I do not know what his experiences may or may not have been, and I'm willing to say, "I don't know". If his opinion is not based upon anything other than what he thinks about his world, or it was a personal revelation directly to him from God, what you or I think about it is irrelevant - it's still HIS opinion (at least until somebody can show him that his belief is wrong). An opinion doesn't have to have any validity to anyone other than the person holding that opinion.

    "Opinions" are why we have more than one religious belief in this world. A difference of opinion is what cost Copernicus his life. The lack of acceptance of differing opinions is what brought about the Spanish Inquisition. Columbus was in the minority when he held the opinion that the world was not flat. If I don't agree with somebody's opinion, I have a couple of options available to me:
    a. I can ask for more detailed information about the expressed opinion, or
    b. I can simply say, "My experiences seem to have been significantly different than yours", and then perhaps share my opinion, or
    c. I can say, "We seem to be at a Mexican Standoff/Impasse" (and suffer being called a politically incorrect racist, or "word snob"), or
    d. I can just walk away shaking my head, and muttering incoherently under my breath

    One does not have to defend one's opinion (unless that opinion is the basis for their doctoral thesis, then - and only then - must it be proven).

    Keep in mind that today's "fact" may very well become a non-fact tomorrow. (FACT: Pluto is NOT a planet, regardless of how it had been classified for over 70 years). A "fact" is simply the reguritation of somebody else's opinion (granted, it was "proven" by the means available in it's day, and has not yet been disproven), but facts show little in the way of individual creativity of thought. I would probably go absolutely insane from the boredom, if everybody thought the same way I do.

    UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you ever try to adjust the tin-foil hat of the the person with whom you disagree (it's the only thing that can mute THE VOICES)! Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 02-14-2012 at 09:48 PM. Reason: typo correction
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  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    No, I am not answering for him, I am just supporting his right to have - and voice - his (perhaps unsubstantiated) opinion.
    Which is fine, the problem comes when someone comes along, and denies the opinion of someone else, with their own unsubstantiated opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223
    I think his opinion is probably based upon his personal experiences with LEO's, and they may have (at least for the most part) actually been positive. I do not know what his experiences may or may not have been, and I'm willing to say, "I don't know". If his opinion is not based upon anything other than what he thinks about his world, or it was a personal revelation directly to him from God, what you or I think about it is irrelevant - it's still HIS opinion (at least until somebody can show him that his belief is wrong). An opinion doesn't have to have any validity to anyone other than the person holding that opinion.
    Like I mentioned, opinions based upon facts and data are much more relevant than irrelevant baseless opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223
    "Opinions" are why we have more than one religious belief in this world. A difference of opinion is what cost Copernicus his life. The lack of acceptance of differing opinions is what brought about the Spanish Inquisition. Columbus was in the minority when he held the opinion that the world was not flat. If I don't agree with somebody's opinion, I have a couple of options available to me:
    a. I can ask for more detailed information about the expressed opinion, or
    b. I can simply say, "My experiences seem to have been significantly different than yours", and then perhaps share my opinion, or
    c. I can say, "We seem to be at a Mexican Standoff/Impasse" (and suffer being called a politically incorrect racist, or "word snob"), or
    d. I can just walk away shaking my head, and muttering incoherently under my breath
    So, do you see that I picked option 'a'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223
    One does not have to defend one's opinion (unless that opinion is the basis for their doctoral thesis, then - and only then - must it be proven).
    Correct, and when someone doesn't, then I typically dismiss that opinion as 'baseless.'
    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223
    Keep in mind that today's "fact" may very well become a non-fact tomorrow. (FACT: Pluto is NOT a planet, regardless of how it had been classified for over 70 years). A "fact" is simply the reguritation of somebody else's opinion (granted, it was "proven" by the means available in it's day, and has not yet been disproven), but facts show little in the way of individual creativity of thought. I would probably go absolutely insane from the boredom, if everybody thought the same way I do.

    UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you ever try to adjust the tin-foil hat of the the person with whom you disagree (it's the only thing that can mute THE VOICES)! Pax...
    Why not? You never attempt to disabuse someone of their opinion, based upon YOUR opinion? This seems to be exactly what you have done now on multiple issues. Remember this one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    My opinion may be wrong in your eyes, and perhaps the eyes of many others, but it is nonetheless MY opinion. My other opinion is that your opinion of my opinion is wrong, and that your example is conditional as stated. To wit: "When properly stated..." and even the laws of thermodynamics are subject to [I]known variables/I]. Change one condition and the result becomes different. Inject a previously unknown condition, and you get an unexpected result. Unless, of course, all possible conditions are known to man. But, that's just an opinion on my part. (It raises the question, if there can be nothing new in thermodynamics because of the three "laws" (ignoring Zeroths Law), why were the first bombs gunpowder based, and not thermonuclear?) We only "know" that which we have learned by a given point in time, and we have not yet learned all there is to know. And an opinion - by definition - can never be wrong. It is a "personal view", and does not have any basis in fact. Pax...
    Seems you like to attempt to force others to accept your opinion. And, why did you bother to come in here and 'opinionate' about the term 'opinion' anyway, and add nothing to the discussion except distraction?

    He gave an opinion, and I asked what data he used to formulate that opinion. He either has some, or he doesn't. Your interjection of 'definition of opinion' is simply a waste of forum dataspace.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    ...
    Like I mentioned, opinions based upon facts and data are much more relevant than irrelevant baseless opinions.
    So, do you see that I picked option 'a'?
    ...
    Dictionary.com
    Opinion - a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

    If you know something based upon facts and data then it wouldn't be an opinion, it would be knowledge of facts and data. However, you're wasting your time, the one you are arguing with thinks opinions are always valid and relevant; even those that can be easily dis-proven.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

  25. #75
    Regular Member Gil223's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    Dictionary.com
    Opinion - a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

    If you know something based upon facts and data then it wouldn't be an opinion, it would be knowledge of facts and data. However, you're wasting your time, the one you are arguing with thinks opinions are always valid and relevant; even those that can be easily dis-proven.
    Thanks for the definition of the word "opinion", and I agree with your explanation of "facts and data" as opposed to opinion. I never said they were "relevant", just valid as a personal expression of belief. I wasn't aware we were "arguing", although there was a "heated discussion" in progress prior to that. I was of the opinion we were discussing. In my mind, "arguing" implies a certain low-medium level of anger and hostility. I have neither, but my patience tends to wear a bit thin when issues get "wrapped around the axle". Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 02-15-2012 at 01:47 AM.
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