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Legality of using LE/Miltary Ammo

Gadsden1775

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Joined
Feb 1, 2012
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1
Location
United States
I've been reading for a while now, but this is my first post. It's probably been talked about before, so forgive me if this has been rehashed.

As you all know, plenty of manufacturers market certain ammunition as tactical or for police and military. I've read endless forum threads on different varieties of these offerings, about people's preference and why the choose what they choose, etc. They are obviously very popular. I have Hornady TAP CQ in my carry handgun. Has anyone ever heard of someone using a "LE-style" round in a defensive situation only to have that be a legal liability in an ensuing legal process, either criminal or civil lawsuit? What I'm imagining is an over-zealous prosecutor saying something like, "why was this civilian using ammunition intended for law enforcement, he is a civilian!" Or insinuating that there is something inherently "aggressive" in choosing defensive ammunition with the best terminal ballistics.

Thanks in advance for your responses.
 
H

Herr Heckler Koch

Guest
Legality is dependent on the jurisdiction.

It's just another form of gun control, sometimes from the right, sometimes from the left.
 

09jisaac

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
1,692
Location
Louisa, Kentucky
In Kentucky it is illegal to use armor-piercing or "flanged" ammo in commission of a crime and it as to be a felony. Use is defined as even having it loaded into a gun, even if no shots are fired. Then it goes on to say:

(4) The provisions of this section shall not apply to any person who is justified in acting
pursuant to the provisions of KRS Chapter 503.

So I doubt, being in Kentucky, we have much to worry about if we had to use our weapon in a justifiable manner.

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/527-00/080.PDF
http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/503-00/CHAPTER.HTM
 

skidmark

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Jan 15, 2007
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Valhalla
Google up Massad Ayoob on the use of the exact same ammo as the cops use. He's in favor of it just because (he says) it prevents the prosecution from making a big deal out of what you used since the cops use it.

BTW, military ammo is restricted by the Hauge (not Geneva) Convention to the use of FMJ RN (ball) (no flat-nosed or otherwise) ammo. It's probably the second-worst stuff to use ("none" being the absolute worst) due to probability of over-penetration and having no way to make the leaking of bodily fluids happen faster.

stay safe.
 

Daylen

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Aug 29, 2010
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America
Some manufacturers sell their products as army/LEO only and do their darnedest to make sure it is sold that way for one of a few reasons I can think of.

1. They are facists who think the government is special.

2. They are idiots who don't know how to market products and what to produce.

3. They have completely separate lines of manufacturing and marketing for tax purposes. It is easier for them to sell LEO only products with no taxes included and just keep them separate from non government sales.

There are no laws forcing companies to sell some ammo only to LEO, and in fact many of the "LEO only" products will end up in surplus areas where the manufacturer has production overruns. Massad has the right idea, use their ammo for legal purposes.
 

Dreamer

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Sep 23, 2009
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Grennsboro NC
The idea of "Armor piercing" ammo is sort of misleading.

ANY rifle ammo will compromise the standard-issue Level II body armor that most LEOs wear. ANY rifle ammo fired from a rifle--excluding .22lr.

The standard 30.06 Remington ammo that people use for deer hunting will. The cheapest "white box Winchester" in .308 DEFINITELY will. And ANY .223 ammo will.

And so will any full-power pistol ammo fired from a gun with a barrel longer than about 4" if it's .44magnum or larger.

Because the certification process for Level II body armor isn't testing for that sort of thing--it's to protect the wearer from pistol ammo, and generally stuff that is small, low-power, and cheap, like what criminals and thugs generally use.

So the concept of "AP ammo" is sort of a BS concept to start with.

If anyone can find an instance where a criminal actually USED military-issue AP ammo in the commission of a crime and it proved to be somehow "more lethal" than "regular" rifle ammo, I'd like to see it.

Restrictions on certain types of ammo is just fear mongering and propaganda. A rifle will kill you just as dead no matter if it is firing a standard FMJ round or the lastest high-tech Depleated Uranium/Armor Piercing round. Banning certain kinds of ammo because it "sounds nasty" or "looks evil" is just a stepping stone to banning ALL ammo, and therefore is just a tool in the arsenal of tyrants.

Speaking of which, I have about 20 boxes of 10mm Black Talons. And as soon as I add a 10mm pistol to my collection (I stupidly sold my Delta Elite about 10 years ago) I will DEFINITELY be carrying those rounds, because finding the new PDXs in 10mm is nearly impossible--same bullet, same load, just a different colored lube coating on the bullet makes the Black Talon somehow "more lethal" than one that has a clear coat of the same chemical...

WTF?
 
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H

Herr Heckler Koch

Guest
The armor that armor-piercing pierces is hardened.
 

09jisaac

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Louisa, Kentucky
(7) "Armor-piercing ammunition" means a projectile or projectile core which may be
used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of
traces of other substances) from one
(1) or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel,
iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium. "Armor piercing
ammunition" does not include shotgun shot required by federal or state
environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile
designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Secretary of the Treasury of the
United States finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any
other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary of the Treasury of the United
States finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used
in an oil and gas well perforating device.

This is Kentucky law, armor piercing ammo only applies to handgun ammo. But usually the law isn't about anything capable of defeating armor, but anything DESIGNED to defeat armor. Just because my .308 is capable of putting holes in soft armor doesn't mean that I am shooting armor piercing ammo in most states (I am guessing).

Firedawg: Does it matter how "cheaply" it is made if it is up to your standard? That is the same way the government thinks. If it is up to par then buy they the cheapest stuff they can get their hands on. It doesn't matter too much that some of the other ammo is better, most of the ammo doesn't hit home anyways. And that has very little to do with the ammo, most of it is the way wars are fought now.
 

Dreamer

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Sep 23, 2009
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Grennsboro NC
Just because my .308 is capable of putting holes in soft armor doesn't mean that I am shooting armor piercing ammo in most states (I am guessing).


The fact that the .308 round that compromised body armor wasn't "officially designated" as AP will come as great comfort to the person wearing said body armor as they hit the ground, I'm sure...

What I mean is that bans on "AP" ammo are ridiculous. There are almost NO manufacturers of AP ammunition for handguns anywhere on the planet. ALL rifle ammo will compromise the body armor that is issued to EVERY LEO in the US for everyday use. So banning a non-existant type of ammo has about as much to do with officer safety as a ban on "autonomous USB-compatible spleen-eating nano-bots" would...
 
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09jisaac

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Apr 13, 2011
Messages
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Louisa, Kentucky
I agree. I don't think that AP ammo would be too difficult to make, so it don't seem that a ban on it would do anyone any good. I don't see very many "civilians" that NEED AP rounds, but I don't think that you should have to show a need.

I think where AP rounds are heavier, don't they fly better at long range?
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Aug 4, 2007
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Cumming, Georgia, USA
If you made the bullet of a .25ACP out of beryllium copper..... it would 'technically' be armor piercing. Doesn't matter that it probably couldn't get through a Level I vest. Like the old laws that mandated sealed beam headlights, it concerns it self with construction; not performance.
 

Firedawg314

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Nov 12, 2011
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227
Location
Florissant, Mo
If anyone can find an instance where a criminal actually USED military-issue AP ammo in the commission of a crime and it proved to be somehow "more lethal" than "regular" rifle ammo, I'd like to see it.

The "Bank of America" robbery in the mid 90's....LOL.

I think that was the only "real" time a criminal use any thought to "out gun" the police.

But you are right, "AP" is over rated.
 

Butch00

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
215
Location
Alaska
I bought some LE only ammo , had a good dealer.
He said everyone coming through my door are LE.
I buy more when I can.
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
Google up Massad Ayoob on the use of the exact same ammo as the cops use. He's in favor of it just because (he says) it prevents the prosecution from making a big deal out of what you used since the cops use it.

BTW, military ammo is restricted by the Hauge (not Geneva) Convention to the use of FMJ RN (ball) (no flat-nosed or otherwise) ammo. It's probably the second-worst stuff to use ("none" being the absolute worst) due to probability of over-penetration and having no way to make the leaking of bodily fluids happen faster.

stay safe.

I would just like to say that this is only for wartime ammo. SF stateside can (and do) use hollow-points state-side for base defense. Which does make me wonder what they would do if our country was invaded.
 

Daylen

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Aug 29, 2010
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America
The winchester ammo I carry for sd already has these "pie cuts" you speak of and is designated as "le only" by winchester. Oddly enough it can be orderd online easily.

There are plenty of brands and product lines that have those cuts that are not marked LE only. The one that is a little difficult to find is bonded ammo not marked LE only, but that is getting easier every year.
 

Daylen

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Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
I would just like to say that this is only for wartime ammo. SF stateside can (and do) use hollow-points state-side for base defense. Which does make me wonder what they would do if our country was invaded.

Probably use the same ball ammo, it will more consistently make a hole, regardless of armor. Plus, it would take some large changes and time in the govt ammo plants to change from ball ammo.
 
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