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Thread: Things I think were wrong in my CCDW class

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Things I think were wrong in my CCDW class

    One of the 1st things I thought was wrong was that having the firearm holstered on your hip while you are driving means that it is concealed. Is their any legal precedence to support this because I am pretty sure that there is no law or legal definition stating this. This was in the video.

    (Video) Another is that they said if I have a firearm concealed and a CCDW that I have to inform an officer of both of these, even if it is a simple traffic stop. I have skimmed KRS and have found no such law, it is possible that I am over looking it. They also talked like the officer has the right to remove the firearm "for their safety". Maybe I interpret KRS 237.104(2) different than some but it seems pretty clear that this is not the case:

    (2) No person, unit of government, or governmental organization shall, during a period of disaster or emergency as specified in KRS Chapter 39A or at any other time,
    take, seize
    , confiscate, or impound a firearm, firearm part, ammunition, ammunition component, or any deadly weapon or dangerous instrument from any person.

    (Instructor) The next thing that I caught was implying that LE can trace firearms back to the owner. Where we don't have a registry system it seems that this would be very difficult. Unless they go to the maker of the firearm and figure out where it was shipped from there this seems impossible.

    (Book) Then they said that the only safe way to carry a SAO revolver is with the hammer down over an empty cylinder. With modern revolvers it would be just as dangerous to carry a DA/SA full as it would be a SAO but they mentioned nothing of that. They said if it was dropped hammer down then it could go off, I don't see how anything would stop a DA from doing the same.

    I brought some of these up in class but the instructor's usual answer was "Well this says it" like that wad a definite reason it was right. Other times we were rushing through and I didn't want to interrupt and I didn't have the chance to talk to him after class.

    So, please correct me if I am wrong on any of these.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    According to these guys: http://handgunlaw.us/states/kentucky.pdf, there is no duty to inform the officer.

    The law you cite (KRS 237.104(2)) only applies during times of emergency. "Officer safety" is a dubious term that is often still used at other times by officers who are scared in inanimate objects. Most courts have ruled it is acceptable still, and this is one of the many reasons that those of us in non-shall-inform states just keep our mouth shut or decide based on other circumstances.

    Modern single-action revolvers like the Rugers from my generation are safe. Older designs (which are still made today by many companies) like the Colt Single-Action Army, and older Rugers need the extra safety of an empty charge hole in the cylinder. Modern guns have firing pin blocks, transfer bars, or hammer blocks and other safeties that prevent the gun from discharging even if you purposely hit the back of the hammer with a, with a, with a, well..., with a hammer.
    Last edited by MAC702; 02-06-2012 at 01:41 PM.
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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    I thought that they added the "or at any other time" to reinforce that no one has the right to take away our firearms (as long as we are within the law).

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    I thought that they added the "or at any other time" to reinforce that no one has the right to take away our firearms (as long as we are within the law).
    You mean I glossed right over the part you bolded? Oops.

    I agree with you. I'd sure like to think the cops/courts will, too. Now you have me wanting to check the exact wording in my state.
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    Officer safety does not trump our god given rights in this state. They chose to become Leo's, so they chose to recognize our rights as kentuckians and Americans. They can only disarm us if they have RAS that we have or was about to commit a criminal offense, or RAS that our firearm stolen. And not just during times of emergency, but at anytime! You are right issac.

    You remember the name of the guy teaching the class? I'll be in there Tom., and i will ask why they are giving incorrect information and information not related to obtaining a cdwl. Everything they told you was ridiculous. They can trace a firearm back to the purchaser if they know where the original purchaser bought the weapon, (would have to be at an FFL, because private transfers do not involve paperwork). but if that person sold it to someone else, the trail is lost.

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    Regular Member bforbaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    One of the 1st things I thought was wrong was that having the firearm holstered on your hip while you are driving means that it is concealed. Is their any legal precedence to support this because I am pretty sure that there is no law or legal definition stating this. This was in the video.
    I would also like to know the answer to this question. I don't like putting my pistol into the glove box every time I get out and back into the car.

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Todd borders and Richard Vanhoose. They were both nice guys and seemed to be mostly on the up and up, but these things caught my attention.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    If the officer can "temporarily secure" your firearm out of an unsubstantiated fear that you may menace him with it, then I wonder if he can do the same with a female motorists blouse and bra?

    After all, all he needs to do is 'have a fear' that it might be used, he doesn't need anything to actually, y'know substantiate that fear, does he?

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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    If the officer can "temporarily secure" your firearm out of an unsubstantiated fear that you may menace him with it, then I wonder if he can do the same with a female motorists blouse and bra?
    ; ) I like the way you think. Girls have cause WAY more crimes than firearms.

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    Regular Member mellio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bforbaker View Post
    I would also like to know the answer to this question. I don't like putting my pistol into the glove box every time I get out and back into the car.
    If you don't like putting your pistol in the glove box then don't do it. There is no legal reason to. Just leave it where Ir can be seen or if you have a CCDW put it anywhere you would like to.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mellio View Post
    ...Just leave it where Ir can be seen...
    Preferably in a place that secures it from becoming a projectile in a sudden stop. An FBI agent in the infamous Miami shootout had to fumble for his weapon (with fatal consequences) because it launched off the seat and under the dash, or something like that, when he needed it most.
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    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Preferably in a place that secures it from becoming a projectile in a sudden stop. An FBI agent in the infamous Miami shootout had to fumble for his weapon (with fatal consequences) because it launched off the seat and under the dash, or something like that, when he needed it most.
    I read somewhere about mounting a paddle holster (or something similar) under the steering will. That is probably what I am going to do when I get CCDW. Until then I will keep it on my hip.

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    Regular Member bforbaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mellio View Post
    If you don't like putting your pistol in the glove box then don't do it. There is no legal reason to. Just leave it where Ir can be seen or if you have a CCDW put it anywhere you would like to.
    I took my CCDW test Saturday, so until I wait I put it in the glove box just in case I get pulled over. I don't want some bogus concealed weapon with no permit charge.

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    Regular Member Johnburns15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    I read somewhere about mounting a paddle holster (or something similar) under the steering will. That is probably what I am going to do when I get CCDW. Until then I will keep it on my hip.
    I've seen several holsters online made to attach to the bottom side of your steering column

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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    One of the 1st things I thought was wrong was that having the firearm holstered on your hip while you are driving means that it is concealed. Is their any legal precedence to support this because I am pretty sure that there is no law or legal definition stating this. This was in the video.

    (Video) Another is that they said if I have a firearm concealed and a CCDW that I have to inform an officer of both of these, even if it is a simple traffic stop. I have skimmed KRS and have found no such law, it is possible that I am over looking it. They also talked like the officer has the right to remove the firearm "for their safety". Maybe I interpret KRS 237.104(2) different than some but it seems pretty clear that this is not the case:

    (2) No person, unit of government, or governmental organization shall, during a period of disaster or emergency as specified in KRS Chapter 39A or at any other time,
    take, seize
    , confiscate, or impound a firearm, firearm part, ammunition, ammunition component, or any deadly weapon or dangerous instrument from any person.

    (Instructor) The next thing that I caught was implying that LE can trace firearms back to the owner. Where we don't have a registry system it seems that this would be very difficult. Unless they go to the maker of the firearm and figure out where it was shipped from there this seems impossible.

    (Book) Then they said that the only safe way to carry a SAO revolver is with the hammer down over an empty cylinder. With modern revolvers it would be just as dangerous to carry a DA/SA full as it would be a SAO but they mentioned nothing of that. They said if it was dropped hammer down then it could go off, I don't see how anything would stop a DA from doing the same.

    I brought some of these up in class but the instructor's usual answer was "Well this says it" like that wad a definite reason it was right. Other times we were rushing through and I didn't want to interrupt and I didn't have the chance to talk to him after class.

    So, please correct me if I am wrong on any of these.
    If the firearm is not visible or in a factory installed console or glove box it is a concealed firearm.

    You do not have a duty to notify, however you are better off telling him/her. You may receive a rather unfavorable reaction if the police officer were to somehow end up seeing the firearm with your hands reaching near or around it for something like your drivers license, registration, ect. Plus most of the time they already know you have a concealed carry permit before they ever approach your window. Being courteous with the police will get you further than if your weren't.

    They can take your firearm during the stop, they can even search you and the immediate area of your seat if they feel it is necessary for their safety, see Terry v. Ohio, Arizona v. Johnson, Whren v. US.

    Firearm traces vary in the degree of difficulty. All ffl transactions are recorded. So a manufacturer transfers the firearm they made to a dealer or distributor, the dealer in turn transfers it to the first owner. When someone runs on a firearm, they transmit the information via NLETS(national law enforcement telecommunications system) to the atf. The atf will contact that manufacturer, the manufacturer will tell them what dealer the firearm was sold to, the atf will then contact the dealer, the dealer is required to maintain records on all his transfers, he will tell the atf he sold the gun to John Smith with drivers license #, address, ect. Then the atf will go visit John Smith, and so on. If the gun is fairly new its easy to find out who it belongs to, but the older it is, the more likely it is to have changes hands since its transfer from a ffl.

    It is safe to carry a modern sa/da revolver with all the cylinders loaded as long a you don't keep the hammer cocked. It's not going to go off if you drop it.

    The instructor cannot deviate very much from what the book and video say. The state has approved them to teach the course the way the state tells them to.

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    It is best to just stay quiet. A Leo has no right to know you have a firearm, and telling him can just make problems.

    Your right, those rulings said they can disarm you if they have reason to believe you have commited or was about to commit a criminal act, like when doing a felony stop, now known as a Terry stop. However, in Ky, krs 237.104 prohibits them from disarming citizens unless they have RAS that we have or was about to commit a criminal offense, or RAS our firearm is stolen. Local and state law enforcement must obey state law, and that's what it says.

    Anyone that believes its best to tell an Leo your armed, just look at what happened in canton, oh, and other states with identify laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    It is best to just stay quiet. A Leo has no right to know you have a firearm, and telling him can just make problems.

    Your right, those rulings said they can disarm you if they have reason to believe you have commited or was about to commit a criminal act, like when doing a felony stop, now known as a Terry stop. However, in Ky, krs 237.104 prohibits them from disarming citizens unless they have RAS that we have or was about to commit a criminal offense, or RAS our firearm is stolen. Local and state law enforcement must obey state law, and that's what it says.

    Anyone that believes its best to tell an Leo your armed, just look at what happened in canton, oh, and other states with identify laws.
    Thanks KyGlockster, i had typed a long post about why he was wrong, then my phones brower force closed on me lol.

    Anyway, KyGlockster has it right. I know, ive put the fact to use on one occasion or two, so have others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    It is best to just stay quiet. A Leo has no right to know you have a firearm, and telling him can just make problems.

    Your right, those rulings said they can disarm you if they have reason to believe you have commited or was about to commit a criminal act, like when doing a felony stop, now known as a Terry stop. However, in Ky, krs 237.104 prohibits them from disarming citizens unless they have RAS that we have or was about to commit a criminal offense, or RAS our firearm is stolen. Local and state law enforcement must obey state law, and that's what it says.

    Anyone that believes its best to tell an Leo your armed, just look at what happened in canton, oh, and other states with identify laws.
    The supreme court ruled in Arizona v. Johnson that police may search a person who merely committed a minor traffic offense, if they feel that person may be armed and dangerous(no other offenses or suspected offenses are required).

    I'm not advocating a requirement to notify, just merely saying, that in my opinion, its better for you to notify than not. Are their going to be legal ramifications if you don't? No, but if the officer happens to see your firearm, and you are reaching near it for your drivers license, or something like that, you may end up getting shot. That's a decision for each person to make.

    I do see your point about 237.104, however I'm not sure securing someones firearm during a LEO encounter rises to what that statute covers. But currently there is no case law in Kentucky on the matter, so do as you wish, but there may be case law after you do refuse.

    Also there is a world of difference between police officers in Ohio and Kentucky. Most officers in Kentucky are friendly and courteous, I find most Ohio officers anything but. Gun are and will be a big part of life in Kentucky, so your not likely to see any Canton-type incidents in Kentucky.
    Last edited by garyh9900; 02-08-2012 at 12:27 AM.

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