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Thread: Proposition 8 Squashed

  1. #1
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    Proposition 8 Squashed

    Just wanted to say congrats to all the homosexual members whose marriages can now be respected for what they are!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    You think that I am ill-equipped...hit me with your best shot Einstein, I am calling you out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Free will is only slightly a conscious exercise...

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowfiveoh View Post
    Just wanted to say congrats to all the homosexual members whose marriages can now be respected for what they are!
    Off-topic but I do agree. Prop 8 was obviously in conflict with the language of the California constitution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Off-topic but I do agree. Prop 8 was obviously in conflict with the language of the California constitution.
    Was it a constitutional change or simply a law? I was under the impression it was an amendment to their constitution.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    Was it a constitutional change or simply a law? I was under the impression it was an amendment to their constitution.
    Proposition 8 was a popular referendum, which carries an authority greater than acts of legislature but lower than the constitution itself.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    It is also a great example of how sometimes the majority is just plain wrong and rights need to be protected over what democratic mob wants. Something I like to bring up to 'democrats' or 'republicans' who cry for things to be done by popular vote. There is tyranny in mob rule.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 02-08-2012 at 11:43 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Off-topic but I do agree. Prop 8 was obviously in conflict with the language of the California constitution.
    Social Lounge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    You think that I am ill-equipped...hit me with your best shot Einstein, I am calling you out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Free will is only slightly a conscious exercise...

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    Regular Member Stanley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    It is also a great example of how sometimes the majority is just plain wrong and rights need to be protected over what democratic mob wants. Something I like to bring up to 'democrats' or 'republicans' who cry for things to be done by popular vote. There is tyranny in mob rule.
    Most (in my experience) people aren't even aware that we are a republic and/or aware unaware of the difference between a republic and a democracy...
    Last edited by Stanley; 02-08-2012 at 11:46 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    It is also a great example of how sometimes the majority is just plain wrong and rights need to be protected over what democratic mob wants. Something I like to bring up to 'democrats' or 'republicans' who cry for things to be done by popular vote. There is tyranny in mob rule.
    I have mixed feelings about this. I understand Jefferson's viewpoint that a pure republic ought to be as direct a democracy as possible, but I also understand the failings of groupthink.

    Too tired to add more now.

    Quote Originally Posted by slowfiveoh View Post
    Social Lounge.
    Hmm, I thought topics were still supposed to be somewhat related to guns, but I guess that is no longer (or never actually was) the case.

    Carry on.

  9. #9
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    There is tyranny in mob rule.
    There is the same tyranny in the rule of the majority, the "tyranny of the majority." This mention, here, is not the first realization of the tyranny of the majority.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    "Tyranny of the Majority" is really a false term. The "majority" is generally lead by a tiny, VERY LOUD and VERY VISIBLE minority, like sheep being herded by a collie.

    So even "tyranny of the majority" in a "democratic" referendum vote is actually STILL a tiny minority exerting their power over the majority.

    "Rule", in ANY application, ALWAYS comes down to a tiny minority exerting power over others. It's just that some versions of "rulership" have the subtle veneer of "popular choice" or "mob rule", because TPTB know if they give us the APPEARANCE of participating in our own serfdom, we won't start gathering pitchforks, torches and pots full of tar...

    Contract law is NOT a "sacrament", and excluding ANY person of sound mind and body from engaging in ANY form of contractual agreement is a slippery slope. It didn't work in Germany in the 30's and 40s, and putting limitations on the eligibility to engage in entering into contracts on people because of race, religion, or lifestyle today is no less egregious a violation of fundamental human rights...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 02-08-2012 at 12:16 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Was opening this can of worms really necessary?

  12. #12
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Athenian democracy randomness

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    "Tyranny of the Majority" is really a false term.
    https://encrypted.google.com/search?...ness+democracy 4,230,000 hits Maybe one will interrupt your dream fantasy.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Q-Tip View Post
    Was opening this can of worms really necessary?
    So far, it's just a can of low-key discussion.

    Is it really necessary for anybody to bring worms? No, but someone probably will.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Q-Tip View Post
    Was opening this can of worms really necessary?
    "Can of worms"?

    Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness combined with no Constitutional provision to define marriage granted to the government makes the ruling pretty easy to be blunt.


    Its always nice to cheer when 2nd Amendment liberties are restored, but not so when it comes to a liberal court actually ruling in a Constitutional manner?

    Amazing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    You think that I am ill-equipped...hit me with your best shot Einstein, I am calling you out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Free will is only slightly a conscious exercise...

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I have mixed feelings about this. I understand Jefferson's viewpoint that a pure republic ought to be as direct a democracy as possible, but I also understand the failings of groupthink.

    Too tired to add more now.
    There are benefits to democratic aspect Jefferson promoted especially locally. But there should be a basis of fundamental human rights that trump what the "majority" want.


    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Hmm, I thought topics were still supposed to be somewhat related to guns, but I guess that is no longer (or never actually was) the case.

    Carry on.
    John Pierce's first post when introducing the Social Lounge was about the movie "Kick Ass". I think that set the tone for Social Lounge.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  16. #16
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    "Tyranny of the Majority" is really a false term. The "majority" is generally lead by a tiny, VERY LOUD and VERY VISIBLE minority, like sheep being herded by a collie.

    So even "tyranny of the majority" in a "democratic" referendum vote is actually STILL a tiny minority exerting their power over the majority.

    "Rule", in ANY application, ALWAYS comes down to a tiny minority exerting power over others. It's just that some versions of "rulership" have the subtle veneer of "popular choice" or "mob rule", because TPTB know if they give us the APPEARANCE of participating in our own serfdom, we won't start gathering pitchforks, torches and pots full of tar...

    Contract law is NOT a "sacrament", and excluding ANY person of sound mind and body from engaging in ANY form of contractual agreement is a slippery slope. It didn't work in Germany in the 30's and 40s, and putting limitations on the eligibility to engage in entering into contracts on people because of race, religion, or lifestyle today is no less egregious a violation of fundamental human rights...
    Some good points Dreamer. It's the problem I have with so called Democracy too, even in the most popular and attended to elections it's still a minority that is "ruling". That is why I won't vote for the lesser of two evils why add to the illusion of being governed by consent. I won't give them my consent.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by slowfiveoh View Post
    ...to a liberal court actually ruling in a Constitutional manner?
    Only because of who was being offended.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    I wonder how much money the Mormon and Catholic churches will spend to fight it this time.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    There are benefits to democratic aspect Jefferson promoted especially locally. But there should be a basis of fundamental human rights that trump what the "majority" want.
    Agreed. But how to establish such rights? How to ensure them? How to allow their expansion with time, while preventing their curtailment due to fears of "omg cars and automatic wepponz"?

    This is where the real challenge is. This is the core of the government question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    Only because of who was being offended.
    True, but STILL it was Constitutional lol...
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    You think that I am ill-equipped...hit me with your best shot Einstein, I am calling you out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Free will is only slightly a conscious exercise...

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    <snip>

    Hmm, I thought topics were still supposed to be somewhat related to guns, but I guess that is no longer (or never actually was) the case.

    Carry on.
    No, the Social Lounge was specifically created for topics non-gun related. It says so right at the top of the page.

    Forum: The Social Lounge
    Really want to talk about your new car or the movie you saw last night? This is where such topics should go. All other forum rules still apply here including the prohibition on discussing long gun carry, bashing other gun groups or LEOs and personal attacks.

    Not trying to be augmentative(which, I am sure will surprise many), just pointing it out for informational purposes.
    AUDE VIDE TACE

  22. #22
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Ich klage an! I Accuse!

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Proposition 8 was a popular referendum, which carries an authority greater than acts of legislature but lower than the constitution itself.
    I used these foreign language phrases elsewhere. Before using foreign phrases, I try to read a bit to make sure that I am not mis-using them or using an idiom that might lead off on a tangent. I was pleased that they fit so well with this thread too!

    I accuse is J'accuse! in French.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 02-08-2012 at 06:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beebobby View Post
    I wonder how much money the Mormon and Catholic churches will spend to fight it this time.
    Last time it was neither one that did the big fighting, it was protestants, especially baptists.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Another victory for a tiny minority of perverts in America...and the many more in number condoners/sympathizers/enablers as well -- most people here among them (as per usual).

    But it's not at all surprising, as many more immoral and profane victories are to come, such is the moral decline of the country and its character/integrity and global reputation in general. It's a sad time in history when things like marriage even have to be defined. Or Ethics courses needed.

    Even more of a reason for Civil War II or Culture War I to take place. Housecleaning big-time and on a large scale -- if there's still time for it to matter.

    Here's hoping (but I won't hold my breath)...

    [As per usual, however, this is here "just for the record" re: an opposing view. No response will be forthcoming to the many flames I will be getting from the walking dead]
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 02-08-2012 at 06:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloudcroft View Post
    Another victory for a tiny minority of perverts in America...and the many more in number condoners/sympathizers/enablers as well -- most people here among them (as per usual).

    But it's not at all surprising, as many more immoral and profane victories are to come, such is the moral decline of the country and its character/integrity and global reputation in general. It's a sad time in history when things like marriage even have to be defined. Or Ethics courses needed.

    Even more of a reason for Civil War II or Culture War I to take place. Housecleaning big-time and on a large scale -- if there's still time for it to matter.

    Here's hoping (but I won't hold my breath)...

    [As per usual, however, this is here "just for the record" re: an opposing view. No response will be forthcoming to the many flames I will be getting from the walking dead]
    What does immorality have to do with constitutional protections? Its not just "good god fearing and moral people" who are protected by the constitution, nor even only "moral" acts that are protected. Perhaps you should try living in a theocracy, just don't expect to make USA one without a fight.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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