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Thread: Practice, Practice,Practice.

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    Practice, Practice,Practice.

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    Many on this forum have heard me say before that I am of the opinion that accuracy is more of a factor than caliber. The shooting at Aldi's exemplifies that. I will be first in line to praise the shooter for his actions but the results could have been more disastrous. He fired as many as 7 rounds at 20 feet at a man sized target and only made one significant body shot(to the leg). The shot to the forhead I understand was superficia.l Had the robber's shotgun been loaded or had he been high on drugs the outcome could have been much more grievous. Five rounds were unaccounted for. Five unaccounted rounds in a crowded location. If we are going to carry deadly force on our hips we have a moral obligation to be proficient enough to know where our bullets go. The only way we can be assured of that is with practice, practice and more practice. I know it isn't cheap and under these economic times money for bullets may be hard to find but there are other alrternatives. Alternative like Airsoft guns, or BB guns, or pellet guns. Pyramid Air Co. www.Pyramydair.com has more of those in their catalog than you can shake a stick at. Decent guns can be bought for less than a box of some ammo. The cost of CO2 cartridges, BB's and pellets less than a pack of cigarettes. Up to 20 - 25 feet the accuarcy of the better quality guns rival firearms. A simple "bullet trap" can be made from a cardboard box and a bunch of crumpled newspaper and can be used in a basement or large room. Attached to this post I have a picture of some shooting I have done in the past couple of days. I don't post the picture to brag. I post it to illustrate the theme of this post. In my 63 years of shooting guns I have shot in excess of 200,000 bullets and countless BB's and pellets. The shooting was done using a Crosman model AA11 .177 caliber CO2 BB pistol and a Daisy model 1700 CO2 .177 caliber pistol. Shooting was done indoors at a measured 12 feet. All events were witnessed. The picture is only posted to show that pracice, practice and more practice can make you an acceptable shooter and it doesn't need to break the bank
    .

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    Regular Member oliverclotheshoff's Avatar
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    nice shootin
    SCOTT

    "When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns"

    "When seconds count police are minutes away"

    "Dialing 911 only takes seconds but waiting for help may take the rest of your life"

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    +1, everything you have said is accurate. While many of the folks on this site are most likely decent shots, the extra practice is what will make the shot count when the adrenaline is racing.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Even dry fireing can make a huge differants, pellet guns, air soft ect ect.

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Even dry fireing can make a huge differants, pellet guns, air soft ect ect.
    What's an ect ect?
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

  6. #6
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    While I was aboard ship it was uninhabitable for a while and we were assigned to a barracks that were nearly uninhabitable. To entertain myself I bought a nice CO2 air pistol and measured out a 21 foot Tueller Drill range, 21 feet from my rack to the bullet trap, built just as the Captain described, a cardboard box with a nickle-sized hole and full of crumpled newspaper. I was able to shoot many rounds without scarring the box. Then I fitted a light to the pistol and went on big game hunts on the abandoned upper floors, hunting for the Palmetto Bugs, fierce and dreaded.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    What's an ect ect?
    From the Urban Dictionary:

    The stupid person way to abbreviate "et cetera." The "et" standing for the Latin word "et" and the "c" standing for the Latin word "cetera", hence etc. and not ect.

    Cite.

    No offense intended, just fun.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 02-08-2012 at 07:16 PM.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Opt-Out Members scm54449's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    While many of the folks on this site are most likely decent shots, the extra practice is what will make the shot count when the adrenaline is racing.
    I remember back in the late 60's and early 70's when the course of fire was Practical Police Combat (PPC) and the K-frame Smith & Wesson was the choice of many PD's across the country. I was living in another state where an officer who was the reigning state champion in PPC was involved in a firefight inside of a convenience store at a distance no greater than the recent shooting at Aldi's. The officer and the BG both emptied their revolvers and the only casualties were pride and the products on the shelves. If someone has never been in a firefight and their training doesn't take them to a full adrenalin dump and maximum pucker factor, being dead-on in practice may not translate into the same level of performance in the stress of a real shooting situation.

    I don't share this to imply that everyone can, should, or must take their training to that level. I also am not making the case that PPC was the most realistic training or to imply that practice and training under less than life-threatening conditions have no value. I share the story only to caution that being in a real firefight is a very different experience from typical range practice and we should judge the performance of others and set our own expectations accordingly.
    Member of Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Scm, I agree with you. I was attempting to make a similar point albeit in a much shorter version. Developing muscle memory can assist when your adrenaline starts flowing hence the practice. You are most correct in saying that no practice can truly replicate a firefight situation.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Opt-Out Members scm54449's Avatar
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    bgsd - I'm good and I hope you are too!
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    There are many physical and mental factors that come into play during a down and dirty firefight. No one can predict how any of us would react if it came to pass. Noise, confusion, fear, adrenaline, enviroment conditions, moral convictions, religious beliefs all would probably come into play, I don't question that. It is still my opinion that a person that does go into a firefight with confidence in their firearm and shooting ability will have a better chance to survive that one who does not.
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 02-08-2012 at 08:58 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scm54449 View Post
    bgsd - I'm good and I hope you are too!
    Of course
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scm54449 View Post
    I remember back in the late 60's and early 70's when the course of fire was Practical Police Combat (PPC) and the K-frame Smith & Wesson was the choice of many PD's across the country. I was living in another state where an officer who was the reigning state champion in PPC was involved in a firefight inside of a convenience store at a distance no greater than the recent shooting at Aldi's. The officer and the BG both emptied their revolvers and the only casualties were pride and the products on the shelves. If someone has never been in a firefight and their training doesn't take them to a full adrenalin dump and maximum pucker factor, being dead-on in practice may not translate into the same level of performance in the stress of a real shooting situation.

    I don't share this to imply that everyone can, should, or must take their training to that level. I also am not making the case that PPC was the most realistic training or to imply that practice and training under less than life-threatening conditions have no value. I share the story only to caution that being in a real firefight is a very different experience from typical range practice and we should judge the performance of others and set our own expectations accordingly.
    Having shot a lot of PPC ,TRC, IPSC as with a lot of pistol courses it becomes more about Competition winning the match instead of learning survival skills. You learn to stand,prone, kneel a certain way. You use special equipment ect.

    You have to obay the rules. Any time you train to be the best in one sport you limit your skill set to that one sport. Shooting these courses of fire can teach you some good skills adapting them to a street fight is the key.

    As with a lot of training it can come down to what the range you have. Does it limit you to one target, does it limit you to one direction. How does one learn to shoot multible targets, in multible directions, in low light if you do not have a range that allows it.

    Time, money, safety also comes into play.

    Train the best you can.

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    I have seen guys empty their deer rifles without every firing a shot, they just kept working the bolt until the mag was empty without ever pulling the trigger. and wondered how they missed.
    That level of stress over a friggin deer, Now imagine trying to defend your life, and lets see how many rounds are on target.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    While I was aboard ship it was uninhabitable for a while and we were assigned to a barracks that were nearly uninhabitable. To entertain myself I bought a nice CO2 air pistol and measured out a 21 foot Tueller Drill range, 21 feet from my rack to the bullet trap, built just as the Captain described, a cardboard box with a nickle-sized hole and full of crumpled newspaper. I was able to shoot many rounds without scarring the box. Then I fitted a light to the pistol and went on big game hunts on the abandoned upper floors, hunting for the Palmetto Bugs, fierce and dreaded.
    Sounds like you were in the 200 series barracks in Great Lakes....those buildings were condemned and the Navy forced us into them anyway back in the late 70's.

    I use several CO2 and pump powered pellet and BB pistols for practice shooting at a metal BB/Pellet trap. Works for me.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

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    I too have seen "buck fever". Back in the 60's one of the members of our hunting party rousted five deer . We saw the deer come out of the woods but too far for us to shoot. A bit later the hunter came running out of the woods shooting in the air and racking his model 12 as fast as he could while at the same time shouting "look at those son's-of b***** run". He didn't hunt with us again. I have also seen people calmly shoot and kill a deer in one shot at 300+ yards. The truth is none of us know how we would react when the moment of truth comes. Hopefully it never does. Even well trained long tenured cops have froze when the rubber hit the road. All we can do is practice until we have the mind set and physical ability that we think will get us through the trauma and walk the talk if we need to. If some of you feel mental acuity is more important than marksmanship, you are entitled to your opinion. I think both are required.

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    Regular Member Carcharodon's Avatar
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    I practice with an airsoft pistol fairly often. You can get almost any model for close to 100 dollars. I carry a Glock 36 and am soon to get an airsoft Glock 26, I think it will fit my holster, and even if it doesnt, the fit in my hand will be nearly identical. It's pretty fun to use and practicing is super cheap and safe almost anywhere you do it. If you want a good idea of the airsoft guns out there, check out www.redwolfairsoft.com. I don't recommend buying from there, but it will give a good idea on what to look for in a US based webstore.
    "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    I could not possibly agree more with the Captain, well said.
    "To sin by silence, when we should protest makes cowards out of men."
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    Airsoft guns can be picked up cheap on ebay. I have bought a couple for .01 plus shipping. Many are available for less than $20(some made of metal). I purchased a 1911 all metal and a beretta 92 all metal for 14.95 + $7 shipping each. The metal copies have nearly the same weight as the real McCoy and are 1/1 scale. They are spring versions and require cocking for each shot but are very accurate to about 20 feet. They are 300 - 315 feet per second. Not exactly toys. There are CO2 versions avaailable for around $40 on ebay. Ebay hasn't shut the door on airsoft style guns yet. I have seven various models that I practice with daily. They really help train muscle memory. I only hope they would have some inexpensive revolver styles.
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 02-10-2012 at 10:48 AM.

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    Air soft guns If used properly with proper safe guards are very useful for force on force training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutczak View Post
    I have seen guys empty their deer rifles without every firing a shot, they just kept working the bolt until the mag was empty without ever pulling the trigger.

    I've seen it too, only thing I can figure is it's less recoil that way, doesn't hurt as bad to miss<g>

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    i'm best with my 357 ruger single action ..... outside of my AK47 & colt rifle ... and my double barrel ... and my lever action. Heck I can shoot any gun well after becoming familiar with it ... with the exception of my MAC10, which is a POS...

  23. #23
    Regular Member Old Grump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
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    He fired as many as 7 rounds at 20 feet at a man sized target and only made one significant body shot(to the leg). The shot to the forhead I understand was superficia.
    .
    From what I understand he waved a bystander away from the shotgunner so I'd say he acted responsibly. He was facing the muzzle of a shotgun and still connected twice out of 7 shots, pretty cool if you ask me. If you ever looked into a guns muzzle pointed at you from 20' you wouldn't be quite as harsh, now make that a shotguns muzzle and he was cool indeed.

    I agree 100% that practice, serious practice is called for by anybody carrying a gun but considering the number of shots fired in an average encounter and the low hit rate by everybody I would say he did as well as anybody and better than most. I won't condemn his marksmanship, he did the best he could do under trying circumstances. I do wish it had been better but he stopped the bad guy, call it a win.

    100% on your air gun recommendation, Taught my kids with a BB gun before they went to a 22 and 50+ years later I still practice using air rifles and pistols.
    Roman Catholic, Life Member of American Legion, VFW, Wisconsin Libertarian party, Wi-FORCE, WGO, NRA, JPFO, GOA, SAF and CCRKBA

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    I get the impression that some on this forum think I am condemning the Aldi shooter's marksmanship. I meant nothing of the kind. My intent was to use it as an example. I have nothing but praise for his actions. He himself commented that he needed more range time. I think it is possible he is typical of many people getting CCL's. Buy a gun find out that ammo is $30 a box go to a range, probably a good distance away, fire half the box and then think that at the price of ammo and range time that's good enough. I don't know what this shooter's reason are but I do know the above senario is factual because I have witnessed it. Under stress most of those people couldn't hit the side of a barn from the inside.

    I consider myself a better than average marksman. What would I do in a confrontation? I don't know. I don't want to find out. Maybe I'll poop my pants and run screaming down the street. However, if I do keep my wits I do know that I'm equal to neutralizing the situation without endangering innocents. I don't support mandatory training but I do support promicious practice. The intent of my post was not meant to be demeaning to the Aldi shooter but to recommend alternative low cost ways to improve our marksmanship. If that isn't the message that came accross then Miss McGillicuddy failed in her task.

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