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Thread: Fall 2011 Legal Update City of Madison Police Depatment

  1. #1
    Regular Member cowboyridn's Avatar
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    Fall 2011 Legal Update City of Madison Police Depatment

    I was researching the probable cause and reasonable suspicion on open carry vs. concealed carry and came across this legal update from late fall of 2011 by the City of Madison Police Department. I read through it and it sure has a lot of what they expect us to allow them to do during a stop either walking along the street or in a vehicle while either open carrying or concealed carry.

    My concern is that some federal Judges in other jurisdictions are ruling that if an officer knows or suspects you’re carrying concealed, he then has probable cause to detain, search, and seize your firearm.
    The law was when open carrying, merely having a firearm on your side in the open was not reasonable suspicion or probable cause but, now it is when carrying concealed.

    What the heck…….

    If this has been hashed out before, sorry been out of the forum for a while.


    Cowboyridn

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    As indicated, Act 35 does not require CCW license holders who are armed to notify law enforcement of that fact during an encounter. They do, however, need to produce their license and photo ID if requested. DOJ has put forth some initial recommendations for CCW license holders to follow if contacted by law enforcement while carrying a concealed weapon: Immediately tell the officer that you're carrying a concealed weapon and where it's located...
    So even though it's not the law, they recommend it? OK, well why not dance the hokey pokey and offer them some delicious corn muffins as long as you're making up stuff to do that's not required by law?
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

  3. #3
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    So even though it's not the law, they recommend it? OK, well why not dance the hokey pokey and offer them some delicious corn muffins as long as you're making up stuff to do that's not required by law?
    http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/...q-20111020.pdf
    What should I do if I have a CCW license and I have contact with a law enforcement officer while in possession of a concealed weapon?
    While the law does not impose any specific requirements other than displaying a photo ID and CCW license upon request of a law enforcement officer, there are some recommended actions you should take when you have contact with a law enforcement officer. Contact can include a traffic or other stop and situations where you contact an officer or when an officer approaches you for information or otherwise. If you have a CCW license and you have contact with a law enforcement officer while carrying a concealed weapon, you should do the following:
    1. Immediately tell the officer that you're carrying a concealed weapon and where it's located.
    2. Keep your hands where the officer can see them.
    3. Cooperate fully with the officer.
    4. Don't make any quick movements, especially toward the weapon.
    5. If you're in a vehicle:
     Roll down your window and place your hands in plain view on the steering wheel
     If it is at night, turn on the vehicle's dome light.
     Calmly tell the officer you have a CCW license and that you have a weapon with you. Ask the officer if they have particular instructions concerning the weapon.
     Do not touch or attempt to touch the weapon unless specifically told to do so by the officer.
     Do not leave your vehicle unless specifically told to do so by the officer.
    In certain circumstances, a law enforcement officer may ask to take temporary possession of the weapon or may seize the weapon during interaction with the individual to ensure the safety of the officer and others or to secure the weapon as evidence. The officer will return the weapon at the end of the stop unless the individual is placed under arrest for a violation of the law that allows the weapon to be seized.
    It is good to know the truth before insulting another.

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    I just heard that Dane County just had some training re: CC. They mentioned that there needs to be RAS, and used the Madison 5 as an illustration. But it was also stated that Madison PD was not following that, and would be actively detaining with no RAS.
    Click Here for New to WI Open Carry Legal References and Informational Videos--- FAQ's http://Tinyurl.com/OpenCarry-WI

    The Armed Badger A WI site dedicated to Concealed Carry in WI

    "To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason, Speech of June 14, 1788

    http://Tinyurl.com/New-To-Guns to DL useful Info

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    Interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by Motofixxer View Post
    I just heard that Dane County just had some training re: CC. They mentioned that there needs to be RAS, and used the Madison 5 as an illustration. But it was also stated that Madison PD was not following that, and would be actively detaining with no RAS.
    Let the lawsuits begin then sheesh If they violate the law they should be held resposible....

    but then we already know they are above the law in general..
    May I see your First, Fourth And Thirteenth Amendment Permits, please?

    Guns do not make you a killer. I
    think killing makes you a killer. You can kill
    someone with a baseball bat or a car, but no one is
    trying to ban you from driving to the ball game. (Andy Rooney RIP)

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah
    So even though it's not the law, they recommend it?
    Yep. As Doug pointed out, they have a laundry list of how they think a good little sheep should act.
    And as you've already pointed out, absent RAS of a crime they don't have the aw-thor-ih-tay to demand any of it.
    Apparently $10K wasn't enough to stick the concept in their collective consciousness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Yep. As Doug pointed out, they have a laundry list of how they think a good little sheep should act.
    And as you've already pointed out, absent RAS of a crime they don't have the aw-thor-ih-tay to demand any of it.
    Apparently $10K wasn't enough to stick the concept in their collective consciousness.
    *
    Last edited by Mlutz; 02-09-2012 at 04:48 AM.
    "I don't really care for "cream cheese"..."

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Apparently $10K wasn't enough to stick the concept in their collective consciousness.
    Hmm...I think somebody said that(inside joke).


    Oh and apparently Madison PD was saying they wouldn't change policy until case law made it clear...
    Last edited by Motofixxer; 02-09-2012 at 05:23 AM.
    Click Here for New to WI Open Carry Legal References and Informational Videos--- FAQ's http://Tinyurl.com/OpenCarry-WI

    The Armed Badger A WI site dedicated to Concealed Carry in WI

    "To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason, Speech of June 14, 1788

    http://Tinyurl.com/New-To-Guns to DL useful Info

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    So even though it's not the law, they recommend it? OK, well why not dance the hokey pokey and offer them some delicious corn muffins as long as you're making up stuff to do that's not required by law?

    I dont like corn muffins, can I have chocolate chip?
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

  10. #10
    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/...q-20111020.pdf
    It is good to know the truth before insulting another.
    This is not truth, it's a list of how to bend over and kiss your legal rights goodbye. You're training LEOs to require what is not the law. HTH
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

  11. #11
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    You're training LEOs to require what is not the law. HTH
    Riight. And you are erecting a flaming strawhorse. I and we do not speak for the state, we suffer the government we deserve.

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    and... waiting for Doug to clarify this?

    Originally Posted by sawah

    You're training LEOs to require what is not the law. HTH

    Doug..
    Riight. And you are erecting a flaming strawhorse. I and we do not speak for the state, we suffer the government we deserve.

    So Doug please clarify why we should or should not cow toe to leo in general? I get it that sometimes it may be best to offer information to the authority but can you post a guideline of appropriate and inappropriate times to offer the information?

    one concern i have is what if i inform and the the officer relieves me of my personal protection firearm and had NEVER operated the device and it goes BOOM.. is that a ND on the Leo part? this could be a very interesting discussion if done in a diplomatic way..
    May I see your First, Fourth And Thirteenth Amendment Permits, please?

    Guns do not make you a killer. I
    think killing makes you a killer. You can kill
    someone with a baseball bat or a car, but no one is
    trying to ban you from driving to the ball game. (Andy Rooney RIP)

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/...q-20111020.pdf
    It is good to know the truth before insulting another.
    I really dont see where she insulted anyone. The DOJ suggestions from the FAQ are not the law. and in my opinion they were written in an attempt to make some believe it is required. Just as the DOJ had decided they would mandate a 4 hour minimum training requirement these are simply what they want but are not required by law. It is a matter of choice, if you choose to offer the information with out request that is up to you. If in a casual encounter there would be no reason to offer your information, and during an official one unless it has bearing on the situaion I see no reason to blurt it out either.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    +1000

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    I really dont see where she insulted anyone. The DOJ suggestions from the FAQ are not the law. and in my opinion they were written in an attempt to make some believe it is required. Just as the DOJ had decided they would mandate a 4 hour minimum training requirement these are simply what they want but are not required by law. It is a matter of choice, if you choose to offer the information with out request that is up to you. If in a casual encounter there would be no reason to offer your information, and during an official one unless it has bearing on the situaion I see no reason to blurt it out either.
    Yes i did not think that the DOJ FAQ was the law but of course what i was referring to was the tell them you got a permission slip and have a legal firearm on you. I feel if i am not committing a crime why tell them anything? Only as you said if it has a bearing on the situation at hand. Thank you...
    Last edited by Packfanatic; 02-10-2012 at 01:28 PM.
    May I see your First, Fourth And Thirteenth Amendment Permits, please?

    Guns do not make you a killer. I
    think killing makes you a killer. You can kill
    someone with a baseball bat or a car, but no one is
    trying to ban you from driving to the ball game. (Andy Rooney RIP)

  15. #15
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    On pg. 3:
    The City will prohibit firearms in all City buildings, and will
    post appropriate signage to comply with the statute. The
    City will also produce signs that can be provided to
    property owners
    , similar to the MPD “No Trespassing” signs.
    Wonder how much they'll charge for these signs?
    Or are they being provided free of charge, thereby showing that the city is officially anti-rights?
    Or are there also "lawful carry welcome here" signs available for free from Madistan?

    No force, real or implied, may be used during a consensual contact…
    the citizen must feel “free to decline the officers’ requests or otherwise
    terminate the encounter.” Any inherently coercive behavior on the part
    of the police, that would "communicate to a reasonable person that he
    is not at liberty to ignore the police presence and go about his business,"
    will transform the contact into a stop, requiring suspicion of criminal activity.
    During a consensual encounter, officers may ask for identification and may
    ask if the subject is armed or carrying a concealed weapon. The subject is
    under no obligation to answer questions, provide identification or even
    remain with the officer. If the subject is lawfully armed (an open carry
    situation, for example) the officer may ask to separate the weapon from the
    subject, but the subject is generally under no obligation to comply.
    Wonder why they correctly use "citizen" in the first part, but "subject" in the second, when both are talking about consensual encounters with no RAS of a crime?

    This, however, is just wrong:
    If an officer possesses reasonable suspicion that a subject they have
    lawfully stopped is armed, a frisk is permissible. If a weapon is discovered
    during a frisk, the officer may secure it. Once the weapon has been secured,
    then the officer can investigate whether the subject is a CCW license holder.
    So first take it away, then investigate whether it's legally held?
    Sounds like Wray has been talking with Flynn.
    And they're making no distinction between OC & cc.

    If the subject does possess a CCW license and no arrest is made for the
    original offense, then the weapon should be returned to them at the
    completion of the stop. Weapons should be returned in a manner that
    does not expose officers to any risk of attack.

    Because lawfully-armed citizens with gov't-issued licenses are such a horrible danger to officers who aren't committing crimes against said citizens, right?

    In one place they get this right (must be acting with lawful authority), but here they forget that part & make it a blanket "you can demand, they must give in":
    CCW license holders who are carrying a concealed weapon are not required to
    inform law enforcement that they are armed during police encounters. However,
    if asked by a law enforcement officer whether they are armed a CCW license
    must display his/her license and a photo ID.
    Act 35 does not require CCW license holders who are armed to notify law
    enforcement of that fact during an encounter. They do, however, need to
    produce their license and photo ID if requested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    On pg. 3:

    Wonder how much they'll charge for these signs?
    Or are they being provided free of charge, thereby showing that the city is officially anti-rights?
    PDF is provided at no charge. Printed signs are provided for $5 each.
    http://www.cityofmadison.com/police/concealedcarry.cfm
    CONCEALED WEAPONS SIGNAGE

    Does the City have a sign available for purchase?
    Yes, cost is $5 dollars a sign. There are different types of signs. Both are 5" X 7" and printed on self-adhesive, vinyl stock. One is designed to be applied to the exterior door surface; the other is printed to allow for interior application to glass, and readable from the exterior (reverse image).
    Signs for purchase: Sign are available at the Clerk's Office
    Signs for download: PDF Concealed Carry sign for print.

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