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Culpeper shooting

2a4all

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Originally Posted by 2a4all Crimes committed by persons against other persons who were the subjects of the king (the state) or against things under dominion of the king (e.g. poaching), become offenses against the dignity of the state. Kings were arrogant bastards. All we've managed to do since Lexington & Concord is eliminate the king and replace him with the state, which we have empowered to govern. Now the agents who do the governing are the arrogant bastards.

Peter Nap said: "Best comment in 94 pages."

I think this is the Post of the Year!

TFred
Thanks, Peter & TFred!

I wonder if this would make a good bumper sticker.

Kings were arrogant bastards. All we've managed to do since Lexington & Concord is eliminate the king and replace him with the state, which we have empowered to govern. Now the agents who do the governing are the arrogant bastards.
 
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taurusfan

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Apparently the jury (you know, that "public" the Harmon-Wright apologists are so eager to "protect") didn't share your appreciation of the immense "danger" which "needed to be stopped".

I'm quite sure that the public gets to decide what sort of threats to themselves are "dangerous" enough to "need to be stopped" by lethal force. And I'm quite sure they disagree with your assessment.

In other words, you're wrong.

+1

What Patricia Cook needed that day was a smile and some kindness...words cannot express how this case fills my heart with sorrow.
 

Maverick9

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+1

What Patricia Cook needed that day was a smile and some kindness...words cannot express how this case fills my heart with sorrow.

I don't know of any evidence that she was 'stalking' the children. I don't know of any evidence that she had malicious intent.

What's clear is that she was asked to leave. She was backed into the parking space, (no?). The LEO did not turn on his flashers.

We don't know if she was actually told 'if you don't leave we're calling the cops'. That's the school/church's allegation.

But why would that make her panic and peel out of there. Maybe she thought the officer would just say 'move along, Ma'am, you can't park here'.

She might even have said 'up yours, buddy'. But then the officer, being a professional would say, 'Lady, you have a five minutes to get your gear together. I'm going to cruise down the street and get some coffee. If, when I come back, you're still here, I'll be obliged to write you a ticket for parking. Have a nice day.'
 

Citizen

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Crimes committed by persons against other persons who were the subjects of the king (the state) or against things under dominion of the king (e.g. poaching), become offenses against the dignity of the state. Kings were arrogant bastards. All we've managed to do since Lexington & Concord is eliminate the king and replace him with the state, which we have empowered to govern. Now the agents who do the governing are the arrogant bastards.

(I know 2a4all didn't mean it this way; I'm just using his word-choice as a jumping-off point.)

Don't include me in that we.

I emphatically did not empower anybody to govern. In fact, I was never even asked.

Its not my national debt. I didn't sign those loan documents.

Its not my military involving itself is senseless wars, killing people around the world with who I could have been personal friends but for geography.

Its not my police violating rights, and helping throw over 250 innocent people in prison (the Innocence Network's exoneration stat.)

Its not my (etc., etc., etc. Just insert whichever hidden collectivist false premise here.)
 

user

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Uh-oh. I foresee trouble over these statements. :)

Magna Carta (trial by the country), Bushell's case (juror imprisoned for judging the law, circa 1650 AD), and a couple SCOTUS cases in the early days of this republic all recognize the power of a jury to judge the law as well as the facts. This is an ancient power designed to reduce the power of government to just make any law it wants and enforce it.

Professor James Duane of Regent University Law School, the host of the video Talking to Police on YouTube, is also involved in FIJA (Fully Informed Jury Association). Their website has more information on the subject.

Also, the first section of Lysander Spooner's Trial by Jury lays out a very good explanation of the powers and purpose of a jury. If you simply read the first section, you will know more about the purpose of a jury than 95% of Americans. Very, very informative.

Two different questions; the jury as the conscience of the community has the power to say, "That's a bogus law and we're not going to enforce it"; but jury as "fact-finder" is supposed to do just that, and apply the law as given to the facts as they see 'em. But a jury is not allowed to say, under any theory, "We don't care what the law is, we're gonna burn his arse!".
 

OC for ME

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... But a jury is not allowed to say, under any theory, "We don't care what the law is, we're gonna burn his arse!".
...or, "...we're gunna let this guy go." No?

Based on the NC jury instructions jurors are not permitted to judge the law, as well as the facts of the case as applied to a law.
 

Citizen

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Two different questions; the jury as the conscience of the community has the power to say, "That's a bogus law and we're not going to enforce it"; but jury as "fact-finder" is supposed to do just that, and apply the law as given to the facts as they see 'em. But a jury is not allowed to say, under any theory, "We don't care what the law is, we're gonna burn his arse!".

Well, yes. Glad you clarified that. I was more repudiating:

"Error again. Juries are there to decide what the facts are; the Judge is supposed to decide what the law is and instruct the jury as to the law that applies to the case. The jury, while acting as "the conscience of the community" is required to apply the law as instructed to the facts as they see them." (emphasis by Citizen).
 
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user

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Very well written and a good synopsis. Fact is, though, whatever the law of England was in 1607 is Virginia's "common law": Code of Va. sections 1-200 & -201. The real question presented was, "who's the victim here?"; my point is that the true victim of every criminal prosecution is the sovereign, however that concept be constituted. The victim of a tort is a person other than the sovereign. So the criminal case under consideration really had nothing to do with "justice for Mrs. Cook". That was a separate case which is over and done with.

OK. I'll nibble at that bait. It'll be more interesting than going around in circles on Harmon-Wright.

---------------------------

"A crime is an offense against the dignity of the state." This is a concept that can be traced directly to Henry II (from 1154 AD), and his successful attempts to expand his royal power and influence by sending royal judges on "eyre" (circuits). A Plantagenet king, a Norman. An invader--starting with William the Conquerer in 1066, and ending with Henry II's son, king John circa 1217 who was the same king cornered at Runnymeade and forced at sword-point to accede to Magna Carta.

It is a concept alien and in contradiction to the common law. In fact, the whole reason the common law was asserted, and demanded was precisely because the Norman invaders pushed their law on the Britons. This is why Magna Carta makes reference to trial by the law of the land--it is referring to the ancient common law of England, the laws and customs that pre-dated the Norman invasion in 1066, legal customs and concepts that existed before law was written down (the period between the end of Roman rule over Britannia and the consolidation of power by Anglo-Saxon kings, say for the moment, Alfred the Great in the 800's, as a reference point where laws might have actually started being written down and disseminated again.)

Prior to Henry II's move to expand his power, trials were by ordeal (dunking in water, carrying a very hot iron) and battle. Trials were held, for example, every three months at the manor of the lord. Henry's judges offered an option--the accused could be judged by a royal judge instead of maybe drowning, having his hand badly burned, or losing combat. The accused had to ask for it--the beginnings of pleading guilty or not guilty. This last point, consent to be judged by the king's judge, morphed over time, but even in Tudor England (1500's), the courts felt impotent to proceed until the accused pled guilty or not guilty. Thus, in Elizabeth I's time (1558 to 1603), during the period of religious strife, some people were pressed with heavy iron, even unto death, to force them to plead to the indictment. This was not considered torture. It emphatically was not to coerce confession. It was to force them to plead to the indictment. Without that plea, government was powerless to proceed. Of significant importance is that the people being pressed were accused of political crimes--crimes against the state, crimes against the dictates of the Privy Council and Elizabeth.

Just for perspective, in the early days of this country, crime victims prosecuted their own cases. The government attorney only got involved in the most serious crimes. Even the name tells the tale: pro se cutor. For self speaker.

The idea that a crime is a crime against the dignity of the state is nothing more than a holdover from an usurpation that occurred long ago. Not at all unlike sovereign immunity--the idea that the king can do no wrong, and no mortal man can judge him because he rules by divine right. These are just legal artifices, constructs designed to give the state more legitimacy and power than it deserves.

Even if one argues that "the people" are sovereign (a crime being an offense against "the people'), it still misses. Such an argument relies on collective-ism: a crime against a single person is a crime against all.

Who knows where we'd be today if Henry II hadn't been power-hungry, trying to expand illegitimate power seized by his forebear William the Conqueror. Or, perhaps more to the point, to where might we progress if we abandon old, old legal falsehoods and continue the march toward liberty started on that morning in 1775 in Lexington and Concord?*



*Actually, the march toward liberty began far earlier--Magna Carta, at least. English political history to 1776 is one long story of government abusing or even squashing rights, and the victims pushing back, winning one piece of a right at a time across 560 years. Half a millennium of blood, smoke, treasure and suffering as men and women pushed back against the power-hungry.
 

user

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...or, simply put, jury nullification...judges, and by extension, the state, hate this "power." But, it may very well be that a uppity judge/prosecutor (the state?) would work to nullify the juries decision...the one they don't agree with that is.

The dead church lady was a violent and dangerous criminal, bent on wreaking death and destruction across the land, who, it seems was without a criminal record...who knew.

The church ladies in this case were the manager and teachers of the Catholic school who called the cops on this trespasser who'd been stalking the children for the past three weeks.
 

user

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I don't know of any evidence that she was 'stalking' the children. I don't know of any evidence that she had malicious intent.

What's clear is that she was asked to leave. She was backed into the parking space, (no?). The LEO did not turn on his flashers.

We don't know if she was actually told 'if you don't leave we're calling the cops'. That's the school/church's allegation.

But why would that make her panic and peel out of there. Maybe she thought the officer would just say 'move along, Ma'am, you can't park here'.

She might even have said 'up yours, buddy'. But then the officer, being a professional would say, 'Lady, you have a five minutes to get your gear together. I'm going to cruise down the street and get some coffee. If, when I come back, you're still here, I'll be obliged to write you a ticket for parking. Have a nice day.'

That's right, you don't know what happened. You weren't there and you didn't see it. Neither did I, for that matter, nor the members of the jury. And the judge refused to allow me to put the witnesses on whom I'd subpoenaed to be there to testify about the stalking. So you can make stuff up until the cows come home and it won't make a spit's worth of difference.
 

user

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Was forensic evidence introduced at trial to substantiate your allegation, that she was suffering a mental breakdown? Or, were her reactions based on the aggressive nature of the cop's actions. My question may not have been introduced at the cop's trial, it may remain unanswered/unanswerable.

What aggressive nature? Asking for her license when she's sitting in a parked car with the motor running? Reaching in through the open window to accept it from her when it appeared to have been offered?

There was evidence, but it was not permitted to be introduced. The Commonwealth argued that Mrs. Cook was not on trial and that evidence was thus irrelevant. The judge agreed.
 

user

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I can, some folks continue to paint a picture of a citizen who is not available to tell her side of the story. Was the church lady a saint? Don't sound like it. Was she the devil incarnate? Who knows. Did she deserve to die for her creepyness? Reading some folks the answer is not so simple as yes or no.

She was stopped because she'd just tried to kill or injure the cop, appeared to continue to represent a serious danger to the public, and had committed a number of felonies in the cop's presence. It was a split second law enforcement decision, and it turned out to be the politically unpopular choice. Of course if the woman had run down some pedestrians in Beautiful Downtown Culpeper, then the cop would have been sued for malfeasance in office in negligently having let the dangerous felon escape. No way I'd take a job like that, particularly at the rates they're paid.
 

Citizen

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SNIP Very well written and a good synopsis.

High praise, indeed, coming from a legal scholar such as yourself.

Mark Twain once remarked that he could live for two weeks on a good compliment. I'm all set now for the next two weeks. :)
 
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Citizen

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SNIP Fact is, though, whatever the law of England was in 1607 is Virginia's "common law": Code of Va. sections 1-200 & -201.

As long as we understand which common law we're talking about: the unwritten common law prior to The Conquest in 1066; or, judge-made, written-down law across time when they were supposed to be applying the ancient common law, but gunked it up by siding with the king, slipping in distortions of fairness, arbitrarily defining the limits of rights, etc. Or, the common law as referenced in VA Code Section 1-200 & 201.
 

twoskinsonemanns

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She was stopped because she'd just tried to kill or injure the cop, appeared to continue to represent a serious danger to the public, and had committed a number of felonies in the cop's presence. It was a split second law enforcement decision, and it turned out to be the politically unpopular choice. Of course if the woman had run down some pedestrians in Beautiful Downtown Culpeper, then the cop would have been sued for malfeasance in office in negligently having let the dangerous felon escape. No way I'd take a job like that, particularly at the rates they're paid.

You may have expected to win because you may be correct about the law. The law may very well be written to allow cops to do what he did.
However I'm glad you realize now that people may indeed vote to "fry em!" when they do something so egregiously deplorable even if the law may technically allow it. It may certainly keep me off of any jury ever but you'd not find me willing to vote in a way I think morally wrong even if I was myself convinced it was technically correct.
 

ProShooter

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Originally Posted by user View Post
She was stopped because she'd just tried to kill or injure the cop, appeared to continue to represent a serious danger to the public, and had committed a number of felonies in the cop's presence. It was a split second law enforcement decision, and it turned out to be the politically unpopular choice. Of course if the woman had run down some pedestrians in Beautiful Downtown Culpeper, then the cop would have been sued for malfeasance in office in negligently having let the dangerous felon escape. No way I'd take a job like that, particularly at the rates they're paid.


You may have expected to win because you may be correct about the law. The law may very well be written to allow cops to do what he did.
However I'm glad you realize now that people may indeed vote to "fry em!" when they do something so egregiously deplorable even if the law may technically allow it. It may certainly keep me off of any jury ever but you'd not find me willing to vote in a way I think morally wrong even if I was myself convinced it was technically correct.


and therein lies the problem - We cannot decide guilt or innocence based on morals. It should be based upon law. If you don't like the law, effect change to fix the law.

If he was truly tried by a jury of his "peers" - law enforcement officers - he would have never been found guilty, imho.
 
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