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Transportation and open carry

GlockIt

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
45
Location
Warren, Michigan
We all know the laws of how to transport a gun. For non cpl holders its in the trunk. So would it be legal to drive to your local store which isnt on the list of lawful locations, open the trunk and strap your gun on and open carry it. Could an officer arrest you for unlawful transportation?
 

xmanhockey7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
We all know the laws of how to transport a gun. For non cpl holders its in the trunk. So would it be legal to drive to your local store which isnt on the list of lawful locations, open the trunk and strap your gun on and open carry it. Could an officer arrest you for unlawful transportation?

I am slightly confused by your question. The law requires the gun to be transported as prescribed by this law (if it's a pistol and you do not have a CPL).
750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.
(d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of
the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.
(e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

If you are not on the premises of any places listed under 750.234d or a school you can lawfully OC without a CPL. You can transport the pistol as prescribed above and then "load up" when you get to the location. It is a good idea to take the entire gun case out of the trunk and then load it. I hope this answers your question.

750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
Sec. 234d. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
 

quarter horseman

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
345
Location
Allegan co Michigan, USA
We all know the laws of how to transport a gun. For non cpl holders its in the trunk. So would it be legal to drive to your local store which isnt on the list of lawful locations, open the trunk and strap your gun on and open carry it. Could an officer arrest you for unlawful transportation?

Welcome to OCDO!
Well in short yes it is legal as long as the store does not have a license to sell any alcohol, your not even allowed to carry in the parking lot. Some of the OCers here do not have a CPL and will go to meet and eats and such, transport legally and strap on when arriving at meeting place with no problems.
 

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
i think his question is about the "any lawful purpose" bit. and yes, self defense is another lawful purpose. people get hung up on the physical locations, like hunting, gun repair, or shooting range. but the truth is anywhere you go with your gun that is a legal place for you to posses it is considered a lawful purpose:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/publications/firearms.pdf
"(b) "Lawful purpose" includes the following:
(i) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.
(ii) While transporting a pistol en route to or from his or her home or place of business and place of repair.
(iii) While moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.
(iv) While transporting a licensed pistol en route to or from a law enforcement agency or for the purpose of
having a law enforcement official take possession of the weapon.
(v) While en route to or from his or her abode or place of business and a gun show or places of purchase or
sale.
(vi) While en route to or from his or her abode to a public shooting facility or public land where discharge
of firearms is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.
(vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used
as is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance."


just because it says "includes the following" does not exclude other activities
 
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GlockIt

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
45
Location
Warren, Michigan
Thanks for all the information. I was thinking that the locations provided by the MSP were the only place that you could travel to if you did not have a cpl. Again thanks for clearing that up makes more sence to me now.
 
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B

Bikenut

Guest
Welcome to OCDO!
Well in short yes it is legal as long as the store does not have a license to sell any alcohol, your not even allowed to carry in the parking lot. Some of the OCers here do not have a CPL and will go to meet and eats and such, transport legally and strap on when arriving at meeting place with no problems.
If an establishment has a liquor license, whether they sell/serve alcohol or not, it is illegal for a person to possess a firearm on the "premises".

"Possess" means to have it and "premises" means the entire property. And that means it is illegal for a person who does not have a CPL to have a gun, even locked in the trunk of his/her car, anywhere on that property ... including the parking lot.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(vsxqzy45fmo05c45s5byp145))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-234d

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931

750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
Sec. 234d.
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

-snip-
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
-snip-
(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
-snip-



Now a word of caution for OC'ing without a CPL...

When transitioning from "transporting" to "carrying" be very careful to do ALL handling of the gun itself OUTSIDE the confines of the vehicle. DO NOT handle the gun inside the trunk trying to hide what you are doing from folks in fear of scaring them. Also .. do not lean back into the vehicle to get a hat or anything and have the gun now on your hip go inside the car.... because unless transporting..... without a CPL it is illegal to possess a pistol inside a vehicle....

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(oxd4ik45z1v2x4arawzlnjin))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-227

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931


750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.

Sec. 227.

-snip-

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
-snip-

So, without a CPL, the only legal way to transition from "transporting" to "carrying" is to take the gun completely out of the vehicle still in the case and then handle it.

And be sure to reverse the process when transitioning from "carry" to "transport".
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
I know a person who got popped for sitting down in his car while taking his gun off. Serious stuff. They cut him a break on the charge -- he got away with a misdemeanor versus felony CCW. Still, he can't get his CPL for a number of years because of it :(
 

GlockIt

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
45
Location
Warren, Michigan
I drive a ford explorer. Would leaning into the rear be considered entering the vechicle? If so then wouldnt I have to keep my gun case outside of the vechicle in order to recase it,as to not violate any laws?
 

xmanhockey7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
I drive a ford explorer. Would leaning into the rear be considered entering the vechicle? If so then wouldnt I have to keep my gun case outside of the vechicle in order to recase it,as to not violate any laws?

I drive an SUV as well. I keep it all the way in the back and when I load up I take the gun case all the way out of the vehicle and open it up and take the gun out all completely outside the vehicle. Yes it would be easier if I could set it down on the vehicle then take the gun out but they could try to charge me with CCW so I don't take the risk.
 

GlockIt

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
45
Location
Warren, Michigan
I drive an SUV as well. I keep it all the way in the back and when I load up I take the gun case all the way out of the vehicle and open it up and take the gun out all completely outside the vehicle. Yes it would be easier if I could set it down on the vehicle then take the gun out but they could try to charge me with CCW so I don't take the risk.

What about puting the gun back in the case, wouldnt reaching in to grab your case count has concealment since technically your entering the vehicle?
 

xmanhockey7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
What about puting the gun back in the case, wouldnt reaching in to grab your case count has concealment since technically your entering the vehicle?

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person

I am not a lawyer but in my opinion if you reach your arm into your vehicle to grab the case you're good. If you go all the way INto the vehicle then you would be violating 750.227. I keep the case close to the trunk/back door so I don't have to go reaching in to get the case.
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
I drive a ford explorer. Would leaning into the rear be considered entering the vechicle? If so then wouldnt I have to keep my gun case outside of the vechicle in order to recase it,as to not violate any laws?
Without a CPL....

If that gun crosses the line from "outside" to "inside" the vehicle while you are wearing it or have it in your hand... or I suspect even if you have it still in the case but the case is open (not sure of that one, I'm not an attorney, but I wouldn't take the chance)... then you would be in violation of the law.

Bottom line... leave it inside the closed case then take the case completely out of the vehicle even if you have to set the case on the ground.... remove gun and load and holster it in plain view.. then make absolutely sure the gun doesn't break that "outside/inside" line when you put the empty case back into the vehicle.

And make sure to do the process exactly in reverse when putting the gun back in the vehicle.

Yes it is a lot of gun handling right out where God and all creation can see you (and please please please!!!!!! be careful when loading/unloading!!!!!!! be anally retentive please!!!) but it is the only way to be legal.
 

GlockIt

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
45
Location
Warren, Michigan
Without a CPL....

If that gun crosses the line from "outside" to "inside" the vehicle while you are wearing it or have it in your hand... or I suspect even if you have it still in the case but the case is open (not sure of that one, I'm not an attorney, but I wouldn't take the chance)... then you would be in violation of the law.

Bottom line... leave it inside the closed case then take the case completely out of the vehicle even if you have to set the case on the ground.... remove gun and load and holster it in plain view.. then make absolutely sure the gun doesn't break that "outside/inside" line when you put the empty case back into the vehicle.

And make sure to do the process exactly in reverse when putting the gun back in the vehicle.

Yes it is a lot of gun handling right out where God and all creation can see you (and please please please!!!!!! be careful when loading/unloading!!!!!!! be anally retentive please!!!) but it is the only way to be legal.

Good info thanks alot.
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
They need to either A. Repeal 227 and 231a, or B. re-word something so that you just couldnt possess the gun while the vehicle was moving. That way, you could case and uncase while sitting down with the doors locked. The way the laws are now, someone could just wait for you to take the bullets out, whack you upside the head, and theres another illegal gun out on the street in the hands of a real criminal.
 

quarter horseman

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
345
Location
Allegan co Michigan, USA
Originally Posted by quarter horseman
Welcome to OCDO!
Well in short yes it is legal as long as the store does not have a license to sell any alcohol, your not even allowed to carry in the parking lot. Some of the OCers here do not have a CPL and will go to meet and eats and such, transport legally and strap on when arriving at meeting place with no problems.




If an establishment has a liquor license, whether they sell/serve alcohol or not, it is illegal for a person to possess a firearm on the "premises".

"Possess" means to have it and "premises" means the entire property. And that means it is illegal for a person who does not have a CPL to have a gun, even locked in the trunk of his/her car, anywhere on that property ... including the parking lot.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(vsxqzy45fmo05c45s5byp145))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-234d

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931

750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
Sec. 234d.
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

-snip-
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
-snip-
(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
-snip-



Now a word of caution for OC'ing without a CPL...

When transitioning from "transporting" to "carrying" be very careful to do ALL handling of the gun itself OUTSIDE the confines of the vehicle. DO NOT handle the gun inside the trunk trying to hide what you are doing from folks in fear of scaring them. Also .. do not lean back into the vehicle to get a hat or anything and have the gun now on your hip go inside the car.... because unless transporting..... without a CPL it is illegal to possess a pistol inside a vehicle....

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(oxd4ik45z1v2x4arawzlnjin))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-227

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931


750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.

Sec. 227.

-snip-

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
-snip-

So, without a CPL, the only legal way to transition from "transporting" to "carrying" is to take the gun completely out of the vehicle still in the case and then handle it.

And be sure to reverse the process when transitioning from "carry" to "transport".



Are you schooling me?
 
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Mahnarch

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Messages
22
Location
Borculo, Mi.
These little "gotcha" laws are ********.

Something as simple as a "carpet line" can mean the difference between "legal" and "20 years"* is ********.


We need more common sense reps and senators, both in the Michigan and US Congress.


[I purposely spelled "reps" and "senators" in lower case because they are all balless pussies and/or democrats who are high on their speedballs or ...highballs....I'm not sure what democrats take because I'm not a hippy.]


[EDIT: W*** T** F***???!!!! We ar* on a G** D*** G** Foru* and we c*n't s** B**S**T?!]


Go* ***m **** F*** monkey S*** *** F*** Sprinkler!!!


"What's this I hear you broke a rake and threw it into the woods?"
"What?! NO. I.. The... I figured the rake was MADE of wood. And, I thought it should be back with it's family..."
 
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Bronson

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,126
Location
Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
your local store which isnt on the list of lawful locations

smellslike... nailed it (emphasis in his post is mine).

i think his question is about the "any lawful purpose" bit. and yes, self defense is another lawful purpose. people get hung up on the physical locations, like hunting, gun repair, or shooting range. but the truth is anywhere you go with your gun that is a legal place for you to posses it is considered a lawful purpose:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/publications/firearms.pdf

"(b) "Lawful purpose" includes the following:

...

just because it says "includes the following" does not exclude other activities

Expresio unius est exclusio alterius ("the express mention of one thing excludes all others")

Items not on the list are assumed not to be covered by the statute. However, sometimes a list in a statute is illustrative, not exclusionary. This is usually indicated by a word such as "includes" or "such as".

Bronson
 
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Bronson

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,126
Location
Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
im new to the Open Carry concept.

One of the first things we all learn is, whenever possible, go read the law directly instead of somebody else's interpretation of the law....even the MSP.

the locations provided by the MSP

Like in this case, the MSP doesn't provide the list of examples that are lawful, the legislature did. We have found other examples in the past where the MSP website leaves out crucial information in their synopses of the laws. Like I said earlier, whenever possible go to the law directly.

Here's a link where you can do a key word search of all MI laws.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(14nh452ygss5nm45miv0im55))/mileg.aspx?page=home

Bronson
 

Big Gay Al

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
1,944
Location
Mason, Michigan, USA
Personally, I think the part about not being able to OC in your own vehicle needs to be fixed. There are other states where OC IN a vehicle is perfectly legal. All this crap about having to load and unload, holster and unholster just so we an walk around with our weapons is complete nonsense.

I have my CPL, so I'm not worried about myself. But I feel for my fellow Michiganders who, for whatever reasons, don't or can't get a CPL, They should not have to go through all this crap just to exercise their God-given rights.
 
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