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Santorum Gnawing On His Foot?

PistolPackingMomma

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Although I appreciate your point of view, moral warrior, it isn't the place of society to tell a female what she can and cannot do with her body; she lives with her difficult decision.

Also, some posts back some person referenced a female choosing to open her legs, choosing to have sex, choosing this that and the other, the premise is that she had a choice in the matter--obtuse.

As someone has already pointed out, the majority of abortions are not performed on rape victims, but women who "accidently" got pregnant. For those women, they DID have a choice.

Or are you going to claim that since they did not desire to become pregnant, that they didn't have a choice?
 

david.ross

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As someone has already pointed out, the majority of abortions are not performed on rape victims, but women who "accidently" got pregnant. For those women, they DID have a choice.

Or are you going to claim that since they did not desire to become pregnant, that they didn't have a choice?


I'll make this VERY clear, as many people here do are not educated properly in regards to birth control.

Birth Control has failure rates, there is no "perfect world scenario."

If you're sick, birth control by whatever means may become ineffective. "Being sick" doesn't mean a person has to be symptomatic(showing signs), they can be asymptomatic(not show signs), not realizing before it's too late.

Antibiotics affects Nuvaring, the pill, and other birth control methods, which the antibiotics may stay in your system for an undetermined amount of time.

End of reasoning regarding "accidental" pregnancies when on birth control.

I'll also say this, as I've said it elsewhere: Regarding granting "personhood status" to a fetus upon conception. This is going to open a completely popularize a carefree lifestyle, which I do support. I will explain. As someone who sees a fetus as just a fetus, I've long held the view people should get an abortion if they're not going to take care of the end result, the child.

Now, there are some Personhood bills being passed by certain state general assemblies which I disagree with in whole.

I will support and encourage the care free lifestyle in those states where Personhood makes abortion unlawful, which is currently popular among pregnant users who don't care about the fetus.

I'll explain the carefree lifestyle of pregnancy:
1) Woman gets impregnated
2) Woman continues pregnancy in order to have better sex. note to guys: pregnant women have better sex compared to when they're not pregnant
3) pregnant woman continues drinking and/or intake of illicit substances
4) woman pops out a retard FAS or crack baby.
5) woman gives baby to state, leaving the burden to the tax payers in the million in comparison to a $500-$1200 abortion
6) rinse and repeat

I will state, I support the above lifestyle in states which will be passing Personhood bills. If I was a woman, I'd perform the above without care, as it's my life. If someone wants to control my life as to when and where I could disconnect a lifeform leeching my system, then I'd choose the above. Which I should note, if they try to pass any bills regarding the intake of alcohol or illicit substances during pregnancy, I forsee the courts declaring such legislation unconstitutional.

Banning abortion will only lead to the times people had back before Roe vs Wade, where back alley wire hanger abortions were common, which is why I always say, "You're rather pro-choice or pro-wire hanger, use some logic."
 

PistolPackingMomma

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Banning abortion will only lead to the times people had back before Roe vs Wade, where back alley wire hanger abortions were common, which is why I always say, "You're rather pro-choice or pro-wire hanger, use some logic."

Or perhaps there's other alternatives, like personal responsibility (read; abstinence, learning your fertility cycles accurately, etc) or adoption. Why is it always only one extreme or the other?
 

david.ross

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Or perhaps there's other alternatives, like personal responsibility (read; abstinence, learning your fertility cycles accurately, etc) or adoption. Why is it always only one extreme or the other?

personal responsibility would be paying for the abortion, not everyone has that luxury. What you're saying goes along the very lines of the medical debate, some stating if you merely deter from dangers, there will be no accidents. This is never the case, and you don't know when accidents happen. Often people in the emergency room will have the public pick up the tab, the same should always go for abortion. I'd rather know some of my tax money go to an abortion than a charity child goes to the orphanage, which may or may not be a retard FAS or crack baby. I work in healthcare, I used to work in mental health, I've seen the FAS and crack children, quite honestly I wish the parents would have aborted instead of bringing a life in to the world which only suffers because they felt the need to continue the life. Some people drink not knowing they're pregnant, hell some people don't even realize until the second trimester, it's not irresponsible to terminate a pregnancy, especially if it's a ****** up fetus.

I also fully support genetic testing, as we need to stop bringing life in to this world which pollutes the gene pool with things like sickle cell anemia and other genetic horrors.
 

PistolPackingMomma

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You've made your point, I've made mine, and you're just as unlikely to change my position on the subject as I am to change yours.

Let's just agree to disagree.
 

PistolPackingMomma

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I never advocated government extremes. In my perfect world (which is never going to happen) 90% of the politicians we have today would be flipping burgers or cleaning septic tanks.

Government should have little to no power over social issues; at most it should be a state level decision.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
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Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
I'd rather know some of my tax money go to an abortion.

If you'd like to volunteer your tax dollars in that direction, go right ahead, but I sincerely hope you're practicing such a murderous mindset in another country.

Yes - murder.

The United States of America was founded on inalienable rights, including the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Abortion deprives the very much alive, unborn, DNA-unique child of his life as well as his freedom to pursue his own happiness.

The child is not it's mother's body, any more than it's his father's body. It shares its DNA with each parent, half from the mother and half from the father. It relies on its mother for sustenance, both during the first nine months of its life while in the womb, as well as for the first couple of years of its life thereafter.

I could care less how clever you and others are in drawing the veil over this murderous act, up to and including what liberal legislators and the courts have done to redefine murder. That doesn't change the fact that it's murder. A child is alive at conception. It's innocent. Abortion takes an innocent life. That's murder.

Furthermore, your flippant comments about spending my tax dollars in support of such heinous acts are grossly disrespectful of my Constitutional rights. Requiring my tax dollars be spent on something diametrically opposed to my faith in both God and Country is a gross violation of my First Amendment rights, which state: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Part of my free exercise of my religion is spending my money where I believe it would do the most good, as well as refraining from spending it on activities which are morally objectionable to my faith.

...than a charity child goes to the orphanage, which may or may not be a retard FAS or crack baby.

Now you're talking euthanasia, which is also murder. You're saying "It's IQ is lower than normal, so let's put it out of its misery, lest it suffer." To be frank, "put it out of its misery" is another veiled (deceptive) phrase used to diminish what's really happening, which is the taking of an innocent life, and that is MURDER.

I work in healthcare, I used to work in mental health...

Such claim is a logical fallacy, specifically, an Appeal to Misguided Authority. It's also known as Appeal to Authority, Argument from Authority, Argumentum ad Verecundiam, and Ipse Dixit.

Regardless, when it comes to abortion, we refer to the healthcare/psychological industry as "the abortion lobotomy mill." Some call it "the genocide lobotomy mill," as abortion of one's own people is genocide: "From 1973 through 2008, nearly 50 million legal abortions have occurred in the U.S. (AGI)." - Source Make that "widespread" genocide. And, gee! Just think: Stalin killed "just" 20 Million people during his reign of terror. You and others like you are responsible for 2-1/2 times as many murders! Are you proud of yourself? Or merely calloused for having cheated so many young children out of their lives?

...I've seen the FAS and crack children, quite honestly I wish the parents would have aborted instead of bringing a life in to the world which only suffers because they felt the need to continue the life. Some people drink not knowing they're pregnant, hell some people don't even realize until the second trimester, it's not irresponsible to terminate a pregnancy, especially if it's a ****** up fetus.

You're underscoring the absolute necessity of keeping illegal drugs illegal, getting people off illegal drugs, and using sane solutions in our legal system such as Drug Courts, which are the most effective justice intervention for treating drug-addicted people. Drug Courts reduce drug use. Drug Courts reduce crime. Drug Courts save money. Drug Courts restore lives. Drug Courts save children and reunite families.

Oh, and of ensuring young women don't get pregnant unless they really want to become pregnant. Contraceptives are very inexpensive. Making them freely available is a far better course of action than murdering the babies resulting from irresponsible sex. If you want to throw your money at the problem, this is a far better target than funding abortion mills. In face, such mills aren't even a target. They're not even on the range.

I also fully support genetic testing, as we need to stop bringing life in to this world which pollutes the gene pool with things like sickle cell anemia and other genetic horrors.

My goodness! You sound like Machiavelli, reincarnated. Do you have any idea how arrogant and elitist your point of view is? Who's to decide who lives and dies in your elitist world? Tell you what - let's shoot everyone who supports measures of murderous genocide such as abortion? How does that strike you as a reasonable proposal for helping eliminate these undesirables from our society? Oh, and, of course, everyone with an IQ in the bottom third, everyone predisposed to an incurable illness (wouldn't want them polluting the gene pool!), everyone your mental "health" people deem as undesirable, angry, upset, unclear thinking...

Well, there you go. In your elitist world, you'd be guilty of that last one, so you'd be on your own hit list. How do you like them apples? Oh, but wait! The rulers, such as yourself, would, *of course,* be exempt!

Since that's insanely hypocritical, how's this for an idea: Behave responsibly. If you don't want to get pregnant, don't have unprotected sex. If you find yourself pregnant, there are MANY couples who would love to adopt! Whatever you don't, don't be irresponsible and suddenly "find" yourself in the situation where you're saying, "Oh, crap - I'm pregnant. Guess I'll just have to kill my baby."
 
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marshaul

Campaign Veteran
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Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
I never advocated government extremes. In my perfect world (which is never going to happen) 90% of the politicians we have today would be flipping burgers or cleaning septic tanks.

Fair enough.

Government should have little to no power over social issues; at most it should be a state level decision.

State level tyranny is better than federal due to its local nature and relative ease in having overturned. But, from the perspective of the individual vs government (any and all), what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
 

MilProGuy

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
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Mississippi
...as to when and where I could disconnect a lifeform leeching my system, then I'd choose the above.

"...disconnect a lifeform leeching my system...":banghead:

12weekoldhumanfetus.jpg



"For we are fearfully and wonderfully made, and the Lord knows our substance yet being unformed in our Mother's womb."

 

MilProGuy

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I didn't figure it would...but I hoped it would give folks something to think about.

Now, you can go back to riding herd over the rest of the forum members.
 

marshaul

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Messages
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Fairfax County, Virginia
I didn't figure it would...but I hoped it would give folks something to think about.

Now, you can go back to riding herd over the rest of the forum members.

Not trying to ride herd over anybody. Frankly, I think that this topic is one where nobody really ever changes anybody's mind. Although, were you to try, I'd suggest that the best way to give someone something to think about is to do just that -- as opposed to something to feel about.

The thing is, that picture is sad, and upsetting, and thoroughly unpleasant to look at. But its introduction to debate serves as, at worst, an emotional appeal, and at best an assumption of ignorance on the part of those holding opposing views.

Thus, it seems to me a tad disrespectful to repeatedly post it. At least, it's not in the spirit of reasoned discourse.

I can't speak for others, but I hold the position I do in spite of, but not in ignorance of, the unsettling reality of abortion.

I've never said I personally favor or advise abortion. I very much respect those who, as a matter of their own personal choice, consider it immoral and therefore do not commit it.

That is a different thing entirely from advocating the use of government force against those who hold a different view.

While the debate may never be winnable, it rests on the assignability of right -- something that will never be settled with sad, emotionally manipulative references to facts with which all parties are familiar.
 

MilProGuy

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...Frankly, I think that this topic is one where nobody really ever changes anybody's mind.


...While the debate may never be winnable, it rests on the assignability of right -- something that will never be settled with sad, emotionally manipulative references to facts with which all parties are familiar.


I quite agree with you. This is a topic where nobody's mind is going to be changed by going back and forth on an Internet forum, or in any other venue. But...here we are, all of us, discussing it.

You consider my two posts as being emotionally manipulative reference to facts which all parties are familiar. I disagree.

To accomplish that, I'd have to post pics of what a mutilated fetus looks like after it's life was terminated during a late-term, partial-birth abortion; and that is too grisly and sickening of a picture to post. In fact, just typing out the words to describe the detestable procedure is something that I would not be willing to do.
 

marshaul

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You consider my two posts as being emotionally manipulative reference to facts which all parties are familiar. I disagree.

To accomplish that, I'd have to post pics of what a mutilated fetus looks like after it's life was terminated during a late-term, partial-birth abortion; and that is too grisly and sickening of a picture to post. In fact, just typing out the words to describe the detestable procedure is something that I would not be willing to do.

I'll concede that it could be worse.

And, yes, here we are, discussing it. I suppose it's inevitable that folks will reflect on the factors which truly motivate them, when reason reaches an impasse.
 

david.ross

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The United States of America was founded on inalienable rights, including the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Abortion deprives the very much alive, unborn, DNA-unique child of his life as well as his freedom to pursue his own happiness.


Underlined is mine.

A person is free to pursue an abortion for his(her) own happiness. Tell me when they create a machine to transfer a fetus from a womb to a medical device, then I'll gladly support an anti-abortion bill to force a "fetus transferal." Then you can pick up the bill for not only raising the fetus but include the millions of dollars it takes to raise a retard baby from FAS(fetal alcohol syndrome - only takes less than a glass) or a crack baby.

Until then, a woman has the right to disconnect a leech on her system. A male should have no say in the matter, as they can't carry the fetus to term. Unless they're working on a artificial uterus like in the movie, "Junior," which I'd be for since 90% of the anti-abortion individuals are male.

Also, you neglected to read the section I wrote on birth control. Even the contraceptives which have a high rate of working fail due to environmental factors. A woman may be on contraceptives, not want to be pregnant, and conceive anyway.

All this high and mighty talk about fiscal responsibility coming from republican conservatives, and they'd rather blow millions raising a single retard baby instead of the $500-$1200 abortion, hypocrites.
 
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Tess

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Bryan, TX
As someone has already pointed out, the majority of abortions are not performed on rape victims, but women who "accidently" got pregnant. For those women, they DID have a choice.

Or are you going to claim that since they did not desire to become pregnant, that they didn't have a choice?


Aw, c'mon PistolPackingMomma - you know we wimmenfolk ain't upposta have sex less'n we wants to raize the kids. /sarcasm

Isnt' it amazing how many men would have us celibate? Too bad so few want the same for themselves.
 

david.ross

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Isnt' it amazing how many men would have us celibate? Too bad so few want the same for themselves.

If humans animals were like most non-human animals, I'd agree with celibacy during breeding season, but we're just like dolphins, which have sex for fun/social reasons. Too bad human animals don't have forced breeding limitations like dolphins which conceive only 2-6 years, having social sex in between.
 
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