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Thread: Stopped for OC @ Poulsbo Walmart 2/10 @1935

  1. #1
    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    Stopped for OC @ Poulsbo Walmart 2/10 @1935

    This evening I was heading over to Walmart to pick up my prescription that was ready. I walked in, past an officer that in their car and already there talking to someone else about something else. I went in to the pharmacy, stood in line, sat down for a few while they finished up something. Then I checked out, and left the store. No one said anything, no one went running, I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. I also OC in Walmart all the time for at least the past 2 years or more, and never had any sort of problem.

    When I walked out there was an officer pulling up and getting out of his car. I took note and kept walking to my car. Then I heard this guy screaming "OFFICER! OFFICER! Over there!" He was pointing in my direction. I started my recorder and waited for contact because I didn't want the officer to be able to use my plates against me, so I choose to stay away from my car.

    The audio is what transpired. Near the end you hear me say "Hey Dan" I turned around and had 4 officers around me, one of them a guy I know. He called everyone off and we all sat around and talked for a while about some other things. But what frustrated me was the officer that wouldn't let it go, and I didn't even think to walk to Starbucks or another business, I just kept thinking that he was going to use my plates when I got to my car and was stalling a little...

    I get that there was just a shooting, I do... But this was a little uncalled for with the attempts to get my name to run. I will be getting a copy of the 911 call and radio traffic, will probably be a few weeks though. In hind-sight I probably scared him when I used their disposition codes against him... I told him I used to be a dispatcher and he could call CENCOM if he really wanted my name to run, in hind sight it wasn't to trying to get him to leave me alone based on that, was just that I used his dispo code and scared him a little.

    The link is a google docs link that will take you to a page to download the MP3 file... Its the only thing I can think of right now to get the audio out there...

    https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B74...M4Y2RiZGQ0YTQx

  2. #2
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    were you being detained or just wanted to consentually talk to the officer?

    Just got the link to work, Sorry I see you consentually talked to the officer, I was able to answer my own question.
    Last edited by amzbrady; 02-11-2012 at 12:55 AM.
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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    Please retype this so we can fully comprehend.
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    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    Lets put it this way, I felt like it was more of a defacto-detention until the end of the audio. He kept wanting to talk, and I was kind of stalling to come up with something to keep him from running my name through the license plate on my car, not that I have anything to hide I am just not suspected of a crime so leave me alone, break contact and leave. I gave him my first name, but didn't budge from there. When I turned around and there were 3 other officers behind be with their hands on their firearms, I did not feel that I was free to leave. Just so happens I know the officer that was directly behind me. At that point, told everyone it was fine and we talked for another 15min, during that time I no longer felt like I was being detained. For the entire audio, until I said at the end "hey can I..." I felt there was enough for a defacto-detention. To finish the "Hey can I..." it was "talk to you off the record, so to speak." I was asking about people that I know that work for the PD and were involved in the shooting a few days back and it really isn't pertinent to the audio because that is when I was really free to leave without being followed

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    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by golddigger14s View Post
    Please retype this so we can fully comprehend.
    "Retype this" doesn't tell me much....
    Last edited by MadHatter66; 02-11-2012 at 01:07 AM.

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Shame on that panicky idiot who called 911 to report that no crime was being committed, and wasting that officer's time.

  7. #7
    Regular Member fire suppressor's Avatar
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    Sorry you had that experience I have open carried in that Walmart for years and never had a problem. I can't listen to the audio while at work so I hope you do not mind me asking how much respect the officer showed you. Did he have a attitude or was it more of a casual conversation?

    I was worried the shooting would cause this kind of reaction from the public glad it turned out alright for you in the end
    "Fight like you train, train like you fight"

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    I listened to the audio (thanks for providing) while there are and likely will be for sometime these encounters will occur but I suspect will decrease with having encounters as this one handled. It was polite, rational, respectful on both sides of the encounter.
    With encounters as this they are likely to be reduced and nonexistent with a little time.
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  9. #9
    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire suppressor View Post
    Sorry you had that experience I have open carried in that Walmart for years and never had a problem. I can't listen to the audio while at work so I hope you do not mind me asking how much respect the officer showed you. Did he have a attitude or was it more of a casual conversation?

    I was worried the shooting would cause this kind of reaction from the public glad it turned out alright for you in the end
    The officer that was the contact officer was a little pushy about getting my name. His words were that he was OK with it, but his actions and demeanor seemed to be a little to the opposite. At one point when I told him I was leaving he tried the "can I walk with you to talk" to which I called his bluff by telling him I knew he wanted to "walk and talk" to run my plate for a PIC, so he could run my data. To which I also objected.

    I have been OC at Walmart here for a long time as well, it wasn't an employee that called 911, it was a customer. I understand the extra cover officers, especially after the shooting I do get that. I think there might be some of the same backlash with citizens as well right now. I can say its the first problem I have had OC anywhere in Kitsap in the last 4 years or so...

  10. #10
    Regular Member fire suppressor's Avatar
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    Mad hatter I am always curious how people use their voice recorders did you just simply hold it or do you have some kind of configuration you keep it in? We need to meet up at some point we always miss each other by only a few hours. I think I might have saw you once in rite aid in Poulsbo but I was running in to get medicine for my sick girlfriend and did not have enough time to come say hi to the man I saw open carrying
    "Fight like you train, train like you fight"

  11. #11
    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire suppressor View Post
    Mad hatter I am always curious how people use their voice recorders did you just simply hold it or do you have some kind of configuration you keep it in? We need to meet up at some point we always miss each other by only a few hours. I think I might have saw you once in rite aid in Poulsbo but I was running in to get medicine for my sick girlfriend and did not have enough time to come say hi to the man I saw open carrying
    Actually I didn't have my real recorder with me so I use an iPhone app as a backup if needed, funny thing is that I had my good recorder earlier in the day and then when I left, I forgot to grab it.... But that is why I have a recorder app as well, because I may not always have my recorder, but I will always have my phone. I am trying to find a recorder that will record from my bluetooth headset as a mic, because I always have my bluetooth on as well. But I Just opened up the app, hit record turned off my screen and held it in my hand the whole time. Audio isn't the best, but better than nothing.

    PM Me, will have to meet up at some point.

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    Regular Member fire suppressor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadHatter66 View Post
    Actually I didn't have my real recorder with me so I use an iPhone app as a backup if needed, funny thing is that I had my good recorder earlier in the day and then when I left, I forgot to grab it.... But that is why I have a recorder app as well, because I may not always have my recorder, but I will always have my phone. I am trying to find a recorder that will record from my bluetooth headset as a mic, because I always have my bluetooth on as well. But I Just opened up the app, hit record turned off my screen and held it in my hand the whole time. Audio isn't the best, but better than nothing.

    PM Me, will have to meet up at some point.
    If you find a recorder or app that will record from your Bluetooth PLEASE let me know. I have been looking but have not found it, the closest I have been able to find is a looxice
    "Fight like you train, train like you fight"

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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing. Hopefully the officers spent just as much effort on educating the 911 caller that the behavior was perfectly legal.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadHatter66 View Post
    Actually I didn't have my real recorder with me so I use an iPhone app as a backup if needed, funny thing is that I had my good recorder earlier in the day and then when I left, I forgot to grab it.... But that is why I have a recorder app as well, because I may not always have my recorder, but I will always have my phone. I am trying to find a recorder that will record from my bluetooth headset as a mic, because I always have my bluetooth on as well. But I Just opened up the app, hit record turned off my screen and held it in my hand the whole time. Audio isn't the best, but better than nothing.

    PM Me, will have to meet up at some point.
    What app do you use?
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Gosh, do you think maybe the "citizen" might have been a little concerned after the recent "Shootout at Les Schwab"?

    You know, there really are people out there that don't understand anything at all about guns or the legality of their carry. No amount of "education" will change that. Unfortunately the cops are caught between those that know and those that don't. If they don't respond they're condemned. If they do, they're condemned, just by a different group.

    I have yet to be contacted by a LEO for open carrying but then again, I carry a Sig.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Gosh, do you think maybe the "citizen" might have been a little concerned after the recent "Shootout at Les Schwab"?

    You know, there really are people out there that don't understand anything at all about guns or the legality of their carry. No amount of "education" will change that. Unfortunately the cops are caught between those that know and those that don't. If they don't respond they're condemned. If they do, they're condemned, just by a different group.
    Then they should educate and possibly cite those who don't (for abusing the 911 system). If someone called 911 over an offensive T shirt they thought was "dangerous," what do you think the result would be? Would the "open T-shirter" even be contacted?


    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    I have yet to be contacted by a LEO for open carrying but then again, I carry a Sig.
    Neither have I, and I carry a Hi-Point
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    were you being detained or just wanted to consentually talk to the officer?

    Just got the link to work, Sorry I see you consentually talked to the officer, I was able to answer my own question.
    I can't listen to the audio, but if the OP consented to the encounter what is it that happened for him to complain about?

    If there were four officers surrounding him, then an argument could be made that he was detained. If he consented to the encounter before he was surrounded, and encouraged the continuance of the encounter by discussing anything with the first officer, than it would lean toward a consensual encounter regardless.

    It's tough NOT to debate them, I know and I've been there; my criticism is based on my personal experiences. But what I discovered was that because the goals of each party are completely different, it's not a debate at all. We want to PROVE by argument that OC is lawful and doesn't rise to the level of necessitating a police encounter. The police, on the other hand, are going to argue for two reasons, to make OC a hassle for you, and to make it appear to the reporting party that they're doing something. If the debate is not a debate at all, then there will never be a winner, and all you're doing is giving the officer time to "discover" that you're dangerous based on his observation of your nervousness. You don't want to go there.

    "Am I being detained?" If yes, "For suspicion of what specific crime are you detaining me?" If no, "Have a nice day officer." and walk away.

    If the officer refuses to say, or seems to say both yes and no, announce, "Any reasonable person in these circumstances would feel as though he were not allowed to leave, I have nothing more to say." Then say absolutely nothing. Don't answer even the most harmless question; the officer is just trying to get the ball rolling. Once the ball is rolling, you are in a consensual friendly encounter.

    If the officer tells you the crime for which he is detaining you is 'carrying a gun' or something similar, tell him, "We both know that is not a crime, I have nothing more to say." Again, say nothing other than, "Am I free to leave?" Be FIRM but undeniably polite.

    Trust me, it's hard to say that to an officer. I'm not just making all this up, I've DONE it. It's very liberating to ask, "Am I being detained" and have the officer look startled and answer no, then walking away trying not to grin.
    Last edited by Mainsail; 02-11-2012 at 02:31 PM.

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Meanwhile, actual criminals were cavorting and creating mayhem all around these attentive officers.
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    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    I am a bit conflicted. The officer responding to the call doing nothing but observing and then "educating" the 911 caller would be a good response, but a calm consensual encounter that does not intrude into "papers, please" or other such ends is also educational to the general public. The ideal response would be the 911 dispatcher explaining to the concerned citizen that Open Cary is legal in WA.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    I can't listen to the audio, but if the OP consented to the encounter what is it that happened for him to complain about?

    If there were four officers surrounding him, then an argument could be made that he was detained. If he consented to the encounter before he was surrounded, and encouraged the continuance of the encounter by discussing anything with the first officer, than it would lean toward a consensual encounter regardless.

    It's tough NOT to debate them, I know and I've been there; my criticism is based on my personal experiences. But what I discovered was that because the goals of each party are completely different, it's not a debate at all. We want to PROVE by argument that OC is lawful and doesn't rise to the level of necessitating a police encounter. The police, on the other hand, are going to argue for two reasons, to make OC a hassle for you, and to make it appear to the reporting party that they're doing something. If the debate is not a debate at all, then there will never be a winner, and all you're doing is giving the officer time to "discover" that you're dangerous based on his observation of your nervousness. You don't want to go there.

    "Am I being detained?" If yes, "For suspicion of what specific crime are you detaining me?" If no, "Have a nice day officer." and walk away.

    If the officer refuses to say, or seems to say both yes and no, announce, "Any reasonable person in these circumstances would feel as though he were not allowed to leave, I have nothing more to say." Then say absolutely nothing. Don't answer even the most harmless question; the officer is just trying to get the ball rolling. Once the ball is rolling, you are in a consensual friendly encounter.

    If the officer tells you the crime for which he is detaining you is 'carrying a gun' or something similar, tell him, "We both know that is not a crime, I have nothing more to say." Again, say nothing other than, "Am I free to leave?" Be FIRM but undeniably polite.

    Trust me, it's hard to say that to an officer. I'm not just making all this up, I've DONE it. It's very liberating to ask, "Am I being detained" and have the officer look startled and answer no, then walking away trying not to grin.
    What if he says those people say you were concealing I need to see your CPL. Well I am detaining you until you provide me with a CPL or a name and birth date so I can check if you have one and then you are free to go? My PC is they saw you concealing it doesn't concern me you are Openly carrying it now? Not saying something gets you arrested for obstruction, saying something sacrifices your rights and potential freedom if you may be in the system for something else. Like in this instance if the suspect drove away they now know he doesn't have a license. Not criticizing the OP or your post just looking for input and discussion.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 02-11-2012 at 08:34 PM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    SVG said What if he says those people say you were concealing I need to see your CPL. Well I am detaining you until you provide me with a CPL or a name and birth date so I can check if you have one and then you are free to go? My PC is they saw you concealing it doesn't concern me you are Openly carrying it now?

    I was not and do not conceal. They may have been watching too much TV officer. My word against theirs. Am I being detained?

    Hey Rob, stop by starbucks in the morn. I submitted my complaint to BPD today.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    SVG said What if he says those people say you were concealing I need to see your CPL. Well I am detaining you until you provide me with a CPL or a name and birth date so I can check if you have one and then you are free to go? My PC is they saw you concealing it doesn't concern me you are Openly carrying it now?

    I was not and do not conceal. They may have been watching too much TV officer. My word against theirs. Am I being detained?

    Hey Rob, stop by starbucks in the morn. I submitted my complaint to BPD today.
    I'll be there tomorrow my nephew might OC tomorrow too.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  23. #23
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    What if he says those people say you were concealing I need to see your CPL. Well I am detaining you until you provide me with a CPL or a name and birth date so I can check if you have one and then you are free to go? My PC is they saw you concealing it doesn't concern me you are Openly carrying it now? Not saying something gets you arrested for obstruction, saying something sacrifices your rights and potential freedom if you may be in the system for something else. Like in this instance if the suspect drove away they now know he doesn't have a license. Not criticizing the OP or your post just looking for input and discussion.
    You're getting into the intricacies of 'reliable witness' and other vagaries. The police can say anything, but nothing requires you to respond. Stare straight ahead, occasionally ask if you are free to leave.

  24. #24
    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    I can't listen to the audio, but if the OP consented to the encounter what is it that happened for him to complain about?

    If there were four officers surrounding him, then an argument could be made that he was detained. If he consented to the encounter before he was surrounded, and encouraged the continuance of the encounter by discussing anything with the first officer, than it would lean toward a consensual encounter regardless.

    It's tough NOT to debate them, I know and I've been there; my criticism is based on my personal experiences. But what I discovered was that because the goals of each party are completely different, it's not a debate at all. We want to PROVE by argument that OC is lawful and doesn't rise to the level of necessitating a police encounter. The police, on the other hand, are going to argue for two reasons, to make OC a hassle for you, and to make it appear to the reporting party that they're doing something. If the debate is not a debate at all, then there will never be a winner, and all you're doing is giving the officer time to "discover" that you're dangerous based on his observation of your nervousness. You don't want to go there.

    "Am I being detained?" If yes, "For suspicion of what specific crime are you detaining me?" If no, "Have a nice day officer." and walk away.

    If the officer refuses to say, or seems to say both yes and no, announce, "Any reasonable person in these circumstances would feel as though he were not allowed to leave, I have nothing more to say." Then say absolutely nothing. Don't answer even the most harmless question; the officer is just trying to get the ball rolling. Once the ball is rolling, you are in a consensual friendly encounter.

    If the officer tells you the crime for which he is detaining you is 'carrying a gun' or something similar, tell him, "We both know that is not a crime, I have nothing more to say." Again, say nothing other than, "Am I free to leave?" Be FIRM but undeniably polite.

    Trust me, it's hard to say that to an officer. I'm not just making all this up, I've DONE it. It's very liberating to ask, "Am I being detained" and have the officer look startled and answer no, then walking away trying not to grin.
    I did not consent to the encounter past asking about being detained, and telling the officer I was leaving. That is when he started asking to "peak at my ID" and wanting me to stick around, sure I could have left but I stayed and provided little info (first name) because I didn't want to be followed around and pestered by the officer. So I choose to stand my ground, where I had a legal right to be and wait for him to break contact. If you listen to the audio, I got forceful when he kept asking why am I being so elusive about my name and I told him "Because I am not suspected of a crime." Why in the world I didn't think to just wander the parking lot with him in tow until he got tired, or go back into the store is beyond me but all I kept thinking was that he was being creative on how to get my name to run, and I was objecting to it and being vocal about it but in a fairly polite way. I no longer felt free to leave at the point that he asked me to stay and I was surrounded by officers. I know that I can walk away, I know what I can say. But I also had a legal right to be in the spot that I was in. Why should I have to vacate in order the free myself of the officer that is now wanting to follow me around and talk? There is an argument that I was there voluntarily, and yes to some extent I am sure I was. But what reason would he have to run my plate when I get back to the car? We all present this argument that we are "free to go" but why am I not free to stay and have them leave me alone?

    What is kind of frustrating is that you were not there, you didn't listen to the audio (by your own admission) and you are writing out what you would have done and what you think I did or should have done. Every situation and encounter is different, I handled it the way that was the best for me at the time, still providing little to no info and maintaining that it was might right to be there and to carry in the manner that I was doing so.
    Last edited by MadHatter66; 02-11-2012 at 09:27 PM. Reason: Frustrated

  25. #25
    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    What app do you use?
    iRecorder is what I use. I can email the audio off if there is ever a need to free myself of it for fear of is "getting lost" if my phone was confiscated.

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