Concealed carry in stores and shops with "No Weapons" signs

Logan 5 said:

I came to opencarry to "hang out" with people of like mind. Instead I see people like Kingfish endorsing the Second Amendment over rights of property owners. So much effort he puts into nit picking over "no firearms allowed", but how much effort into protecting the Second Amendment?

If only Kingfish and his buddies could understand that the lack of respect they show for property owners is being seen by the Brady Bunch. Not by my power, I for one think they are terrorists. But they are here as is ADL, SPLC, DHS, likely the FBI as well as the state. They see this and when they see this, it only endorses their anti-American efforts. Because they now have proof, from the cyber-mouths of opencarry supporters, that WE, as a whole, show the same disrespect.

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Are you are calling me a terrorist?

Logan 5 said:

I came to opencarry to "hang out" with people of like mind. Instead I see people like Kingfish endorsing the Second Amendment over rights of property owners. So much effort he puts into nit picking over "no firearms allowed", but how much effort into protecting the Second Amendment?

If only Kingfish and his buddies could understand that the lack of respect they show for property owners is being seen by the Brady Bunch. Not by my power, I for one think they are terrorists. But they are here as is ADL, SPLC, DHS, likely the FBI as well as the state. They see this and when they see this, it only endorses their anti-American efforts. Because they now have proof, from the cyber-mouths of opencarry supporters, that WE, as a whole, show the same disrespect.

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I think that you will find that most everyone here, values property rights almost as highly as they do gun rights. I will not say all, because I simply haven't met absolutely everyone, and well, supposedly there is one in every crowd. Most people here treasure the first, fourth, fifth, and fourteenth amendments just as much they do the second. There are I'm sure some who come just to find "shooting buddies," or to pick fight, or even just tell long winded stories about expensive hats... but from what I have seen, most of the people here are deeply passionate about individual rights, and they understand that if I minimize yours I also diminish my own. Most of us do not wish to break the law, and most of us don't want to piss people off in the real world.

If there is a business posted with "No Firearm" signs and it's easily seen, the intent is clear. Most of us will choose to simply not shop there. That doesn't mean that we won't bitch about it! And it doesn't mean that we won't start a sometimes heated discussion in regards to whether or not the sign is legally enforcable. We still understand that whether or not the law is enforcable, the intent is still there and still clear. That's one of several reasons you don't see me hanging out at the mall. I know that my gun is not welcome there, and I perfer not to go to places where my gun is not welcome.

How do laws get passed, or changed, or repealed if not by nitpicking? The language and ramafications of law are exacting, as they should be. Understanding it, that's more of an art, and somewhat subject to interpretation. That means that even more nitpicking is sure to follow. Most of those engaged in this activity do so for the best of reasons. They wish to learn more themselves and to pass on to others what they have already learned. What is more noble a persuit than passing on knowledge to others?

As for "hanging out" with other "like minded" individuals; I think you found it. You also seem to be a fairly passionate person at least in regards to individual rights. Welcome. With that in mind, when you put passionate people together in in a small space like a chat room, sometimes they overwealm each other and sometimes they bounce off of walls. If you can't take the flaming, stay out of the...

We are passionate. As I think you've seen here lately. I've personally been in several rather heated discussions here in the last week or two. It got heated enough here that I drove three hours to go meet with a man and share a meal with him just to make sure there were no actual hard feelings between us.

It's important to remember that there are real people behind the made up names and pictures we see here. It is also important to remember that those real people are sometimes full of crap, myself included. Even in-person in the real world I am occasionally wrong about something I think I know a great deal about. Education level or profession is no perfect cure for this. I have cought my professors handing out completly wrong information to thier classes. But somehow when I get on the inner-webby I can suddenly never be wrong. Are you kidding? I'm wrong in the real world all the time, how can I not be wrong here at least once in awhile? Is it possible that you are wrong about this?

This is why we constantly test each other, asking for a cite to the law that you claim, so that we can look at it for ourselves. Most of us are cynical enough to not take another's word for something regarding law, even if they have a badge, even if they have a degree in whatever, even if they are self-professesd experts. Here on the Colorado board, we are all from Missouri. But it is still all done within the understanding of a community. For the most part we go along to get along. When I stop getting along with someone, I expect someone else to come up behind me and whack me with a stick. But I expect them to do so gently and with love and understanding. We each occasionally need to be hit with the understanding stick.

It seems like you had some confusion and angst in your last posting. Does this help clarify any of it? If not you can bring your stick and I'll bring mine. I'll meet you out at the bike rack after the bell.

Kingfish said:

Are you are calling me a terrorist?

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He's calling you a "disrespector of rights."

It's the Federal Government that has given you and me both the title of "terrorist" and they had less reason to do so, but still did.

JamesB said:

I think that you will find that most everyone here, values property rights almost as highly as they do gun rights. I will not say all, because I simply haven't met absolutely everyone, and well, supposedly there is one in every crowd. Most people here treasure the first, fourth, fifth, and fourteenth amendments just as much they do the second. There are I'm sure some who come just to find "shooting buddies," or to pick fight, or even just tell long winded stories about expensive hats... but from what I have seen, most of the people here are deeply passionate about individual rights, and they understand that if I minimize yours I also diminish my own. Most of us do not wish to break the law, and most of us don't want to piss people off in the real world.

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That's a relief.

JamesB said:

If there is a business posted with "No Firearm" signs and it's easily seen, the intent is clear. Most of us will choose to simply not shop there. That doesn't mean that we won't bitch about it! And it doesn't mean that we won't start a sometimes heated discussion in regards to whether or not the sign is legally enforcable. We still understand that whether or not the law is enforcable, the intent is still there and still clear. That's one of several reasons you don't see me hanging out at the mall. I know that my gun is not welcome there, and I perfer not to go to places where my gun is not welcome.

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I disagree. If you want to take your business elsewhere, that's just fine. I might not. Is there any reason I should fear for my life inside a store? If so, I just may not go. Armed or not. Discernment is everything.

JamesB said:

How do laws get passed, or changed, or repealed if not by nitpicking? The language and ramafications of law are exacting, as they should be. Understanding it, that's more of an art, and somewhat subject to interpretation. That means that even more nitpicking is sure to follow. Most of those engaged in this activity do so for the best of reasons. They wish to learn more themselves and to pass on to others what they have already learned. What is more noble a persuit than passing on knowledge to others?

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I don't exactly see nit picking as a need for changing the laws. You bet I want to change laws.
What sucks about discussions on the internet is the lack of visual/audio aid. Yes there is technology out that we could do this via Skype if we wanted, but until then, it's just text, and so much is hidden in the plain text. No way to tell what the emotional state is of the poster.

JamesB said:

As for "hanging out" with other "like minded" individuals; I think you found it. You also seem to be a fairly passionate person at least in regards to individual rights. Welcome. With that in mind, when you put passionate people together in in a small space like a chat room, sometimes they overwealm each other and sometimes they bounce off of walls. If you can't take the flaming, stay out of the...

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I'm not worried about the flaming. Sometimes James, even I get emotional over issues. I have "been there done that" in way too many situations than I wanted. But then, crime is not voluntary.

JamesB said:

We are passionate. As I think you've seen here lately. I've personally been in several rather heated discussions here in the last week or two. It got heated enough here that I drove three hours to go meet with a man and share a meal with him just to make sure there were no actual hard feelings between us.

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I'm thinking that 5 hours would get you here. Not worth it. No hard feeling, James. Unless you want to meet at Red Lobster, and see if we can't find a way to slide the bill to Kingfish....

JamesB said:

It's important to remember that there are real people behind the made up names and pictures we see here. It is also important to remember that those real people are sometimes full of crap, myself included. Even in-person in the real world I am occasionally wrong about something I think I know a great deal about. Education level or profession is no perfect cure for this. I have cought my professors handing out completly wrong information to thier classes. But somehow when I get on the inner-webby I can suddenly never be wrong. Are you kidding? I'm wrong in the real world all the time, how can I not be wrong here at least once in awhile? Is it possible that you are wrong about this?

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I understand that and I recognize that possibility. I stand my ground however. If a place says "no weapons", either don't go or honor it and remove weapons first. I suppose we could dicker about possible scenarios until the cow come home, but realistically, how often does one truly expect violence in a store?

JamesB said:

This is why we constantly test each other, asking for a cite to the law that you claim, so that we can look at it for ourselves. Most of us are cynical enough to not take another's word for something regarding law, even if they have a badge, even if they have a degree in whatever, even if they are self-professesd experts. Here on the Colorado board, we are all from Missouri. But it is still all done within the understanding of a community. For the most part we go along to get along. When I stop getting along with someone, I expect someone else to come up behind me and whack me with a stick. But I expect them to do so gently and with love and understanding. We each occasionally need to be hit with the understanding stick.

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Goodpoint.

JamesB said:

It seems like you had some confusion and angst in your last posting. Does this help clarify any of it? If not you can bring your stick and I'll bring mine. I'll meet you out at the bike rack after the bell.

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It does, but I will still remind others of who else could be here.

Kingfish said:

Are you are calling me a terrorist?

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Not at all. Now please put the RPG away and let's talk about this like gentlemen....

wrightme said:

Well, you used multiple logical fallacies...

....

I read it. I rejecteth all. It is pith.

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You claim I'm being logically fallacious, while you refuse any logical discourse at all. That, too, is logically fallacious.

wrightme said:

The only ones who do not recognize the rights of property owners are those who stay when told to leave.

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I see... So a burglar who kicks in my door at 3 am is recognizing my property rights up until the point where I tell him to leave and he refuses? :banghead:

Logan 5 said:

If only Kingfish and his buddies could understand that the lack of respect they show for property owners is being seen by the Brady Bunch. Not by my power, I for one think they are terrorists. But they are here as is ADL, SPLC, DHS, likely the FBI as well as the state. They see this and when they see this, it only endorses their anti-American efforts. Because they now have proof, from the cyber-mouths of opencarry supporters, that WE, as a whole, show the same disrespect.

Click to expand...

I'm hoping the various three-letter agencies will count names and realize those who're supporting the "ignore the sign" mindset are merely a very vocal minority of the general population here on the forum.

JamesB said:

We are passionate. As I think you've seen here lately. I've personally been in several rather heated discussions here in the last week or two. It got heated enough here that I drove three hours to go meet with a man and share a meal with him just to make sure there were no actual hard feelings between us.

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And I for one both enjoyed the meal as well as our subsequent conversation at Starbucks just down the road! We still disagree, but it does wonders when one knows a bit more about the individual with whom one disagrees. It makes it easier to "agree to disagree," as there's an added element of mutual respect that wasn't there before. :monkey

since9 said:

You claim I'm being logically fallacious, while you refuse any logical discourse at all. That, too, is logically fallacious.

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No, that is not accurate.


I have read the statutes and applied them logically, and discussed this. You have gotten opinions of people who agree with you and presented them as the only answer.

since9 said:

I see... So a burglar who kicks in my door at 3 am is recognizing my property rights up until the point where I tell him to leave and he refuses? :banghead:

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Not at all. Even a business isn't 'open to the public' when it is closed.

You have made an illogical 'leap' to make that claim.

since9 said:

I'm hoping the various three-letter agencies will count names and realize those who're supporting the "ignore the sign" mindset are merely a very vocal minority of the general population here on the forum.

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I agree that the ones who support 'ignore the sign' are in the minority.

I for one, am in the group who is discussing the legal aspects of it, not whether a person should 'ignore the sign.'

You appear to be in a group who cannot (or refuse to) separate those as distinctly different specifics.

since9 said:

And I for one both enjoyed the meal as well as our subsequent conversation at Starbucks just down the road! We still disagree, but it does wonders when one knows a bit more about the individual with whom one disagrees. It makes it easier to "agree to disagree," as there's an added element of mutual respect that wasn't there before. :monkey

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How dare you show your dancing monkey to me!

since9 said:

I'm hoping the various three-letter agencies will count names and realize those who're supporting the "ignore the sign" mindset are merely a very vocal minority of the general population here on the forum.

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Are you trying to tell me that YOU, of all people, actually THINK the majority of those...uhhh....whatever.... are actually capable of such logical thought? Seriously man, like come on. Logic....THINK about it. Then explain your thoughts (or should I dare as much?)....

JamesB said:

How dare you show your dancing monkey to me!

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:monkey

Logan 5 said:

Are you trying to tell me that YOU, of all people, actually THINK the majority of those...uhhh....whatever.... are actually capable of such logical thought? Seriously man, like come on. Logic....THINK about it. Then explain your thoughts (or should I dare as much?)....

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As I've know about a dozen over the years, I'd say individually, yes - they're quite capable of logical thought. Collectively, on the other hand, that's another story, with mild ineptitude for some of the agencies, and massive ineptitude for others.

I believe a great deal of the problem centers around the fact that those who manage to climb to the top of the ladder tend to be little Napoleons. In their empire-building quests, they tend to cross lines, and while those beneath them are certainly more rational, they dare not suffer the wrath of demi-gods lest their careers (and retirement) suddenly vanish. So, collectively, no -- they're largely incapable of logic. Again, that's also largely a reflection of their leadership, and not the average worker.

I'm sorry you didn't like my monkey. Here's his banana! :banana:

:lol:

Logan 5 said:

Is there any reason I should fear for my life inside a store? If so, I just may not go. Armed or not. Discernment is everything.

I suppose we could dicker about possible scenarios until the cow come home, but realistically, how often does one truly expect violence in a store?

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Did you seriously just say that?

In the words of a funny redneck - "Here's yer sign..."

I just noticed Hangunlaw.us has modified the "no guns" sign section of their Colorado page.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf

Do “No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law?
“NO”

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It must be a mistake. Everyone knows that property law and common law make breaking a posted rule illegal.

Bahahaa...nice.

FlamingTP said:

Reason I ask is because I get three different answers from the police depending on who I talk to:

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Howdy Amigo!
Well, there's your problem right there!

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

Beau said:

IANAL.

Signs do not carry the weight of law. Say you went shirtless into a store that was posted "No Shirt, No Shoes. No Service". Would you breaking the law or a rule?

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Howdy Pard!
Yeah, but I got in trouble because of precisely that sort of sign.
It said:
"No shirt, no shoes, no service."

It said nothing about pants!!!!

Blessings,
M-Taliesin