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Thread: Talk about a BS detainment.

  1. #1
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    Talk about a BS detainment.

    This really chaps my hide.

    Cliff Notes:
    Grandpa out walking with his bi-racial 5 year old grand daughter.
    Initial brief encounter with Austin PD.
    Decides to not give name to APD officer.
    Goes on his way.
    Gets surrounded by APD and cuffed.

    Kind of a long read, but interesting as we discuss illegal detainments here on OCDO.
    This is the second time this type of incident has happened to this particular individual.


    http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.co...utm_campaign=0

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    A disturbing story, but he gave bo indication that he intends to pursue. He also didn't mention pursuing the first encounter. Hopefully, he is taking the appropriate action to rectify the situation.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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  4. #4
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Arresting a five year old by placing her in the back seat of a cop car and then interrogating her without an attorney or parent present? Seems to me the five year old just won an all expenses and tuition paid ride to the college of her choice.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    The "justification" for these sorts of things is usually liability of the perpetrators, but this is almost invariably an after the fact smokescreen.

    If nothing happened to the cops who returned one of Jeffrey Dahmer's victims (who was a minor, visibly disoriented, and bleeding from the rectum) to his custody, it's pure BS in a case like this.

    Similarly, you can be almost certain that nothing is going to happen to the 911 operator who bungled the call about the guy who blew himself and his two kids up last week either.

  6. #6
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carsontech View Post
    Outraged, yes, surprised no. Its just the norm I come to expect.

    Insert SVG's sig...
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    the problem with stories like this is everybody, based on their biases, will naturally assume the veracity of the fact pattern if it reflects on their metanarrative.

    iow, what we have here is claims. they may or may not be true and/or at least distorted.

    furthermore, i can't speak to that state, but in this state, an officer could certainly question a 5 yr old in many circ's w/o a parent present. depends on whether they were a suspect, a witness, etc.

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    LOL -- when I saw the thread title, before I even opened the thread, it made me think of the very same story!

    I have Grits for Breakfast in my RSS feed, so I saw it as soon as it was published.

  9. #9
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    An unfortunate situation but not outside reasonableness on the part of the LEOs after receiving a call.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  10. #10
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    An unfortunate situation but not outside reasonableness on the part of the LEOs after receiving a call.
    So. Where you come from it is reasonable to arrest someone after determining he is not a kidnapper? And question five year olds without their parents?
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  11. #11
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    <snip> furthermore, i can't speak to that state, but in this state, an officer could certainly question a 5 yr old in many circ's w/o a parent present. depends on whether they were a suspect, a witness, etc.
    Cite please.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    the problem with stories like this is everybody, based on their biases, will naturally assume the veracity of the fact pattern if it reflects on their metanarrative.

    iow, what we have here is claims. they may or may not be true and/or at least distorted.

    furthermore, i can't speak to that state, but in this state, an officer could certainly question a 5 yr old in many circ's w/o a parent present. depends on whether they were a suspect, a witness, etc.
    Hmmmm... Parent's rights... That's all I'm sayin'.

  13. #13
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    the problem with stories like this is everybody, based on their biases, will naturally assume the veracity of the fact pattern if it reflects on their metanarrative.

    iow, what we have here is claims. they may or may not be true and/or at least distorted.

    furthermore, i can't speak to that state, but in this state, an officer could certainly question a 5 yr old in many circ's w/o a parent present. depends on whether they were a suspect, a witness, etc.
    PALO, what department do you work for? You can PM me if you want.

    From your posts I gather you are an LEO, or affiliated one way or the other, you bias on this story shows it too.

    Even if the 'story teller' was exaggerating, what RAS exists for detainment at all? Was there a missing child report that fit the description of the youngster? Was the older gentleman in the "chi-mo" data base? Was the youngster crying and trying to get away? I am going to guess no on all accounts.

    I am glad you joined the forum and welcome more officers to join if you are one. But just to let you know we might disagree on quite a bit. First is being suspicious of a civilians report over what officers say. Testilying is a major problem amongst LE and it's documented. So I will take the word over someone who doesn't have a history of criminal intent over an officers every time. I have personally read too many reports where the officers have massaged the truth and wording of what actually happened.

    http://www.seattlepi.com/news/articl...bs-1262936.php Since you are from Washington.

    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/181241.pdf Report published from Department of Justice.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 02-13-2012 at 10:08 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    PALO, what department do you work for? You can PM me if you want.

    From your posts I gather you are an LEO, or affiliated one way or the other, you bias on this story shows it too.

    Even if the 'story teller' was exaggerating, what RAS exists for detainment at all? Was there a missing child report that fit the description of the youngster? Was the older gentleman in the "chi-mo" data base? Was the youngster crying and trying to get away? I am going to guess no on all accounts.

    I am glad you joined the forum and welcome more officers to join if you are one. But just to let you know we might disagree on quite a bit. First is being suspicious of a civilians report over what officers say. Testilying is a major problem amongst LE and it's documented. So I will take the word over someone who doesn't have a history of criminal intent over an officers every time. I have personally read too many reports where the officers have massaged the truth and wording of what actually happened.

    http://www.seattlepi.com/news/articl...bs-1262936.php Since you are from Washington.

    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/181241.pdf Report published from Department of Justice.

    the point is, without knowing the facts and circumstances known to the officer (assuming arguendo the fact pattern as presented is true), one cannot know if the stop was justified or not

    obviously, all sorts of assumptions are made about WHY the cops made the stop, but those are mere speculation.

    as for what you have personally read, that's wonderful, but i have read a metric assload of reports where people either simply fabricate aspects of their report and/or conveniently leave salient details out and/.or understandably PERCEIVE something that may not be true, especially as to inference of intent and/or actually fabricate false allegations to help support whatever metanarrative floats their boat

    the point is that obviously, neither the fact that the pair was of different races OR that a person was open carrying gives police any indicia of suspicion/ we can all agree on that. what is the issue is that AN inference is made that it was viewed thusly, which we have no way of knowing

    i prefer to get outraged andor interested in stuff that i can actually have at least a reasonble belief is a credible account and where i have at least a reasonable belief i understand the fact pattern from all sides, not from an account that is probably myopic AT BEST

  15. #15
    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Without knowing the facts?!

    Are you ******* kidding me?

    A man and a little girl walking home, is RAS for what? Under what circumstances could this be looked upon as RAS for detainment let alone a crime of any sort.

    What sort of facts would think here to be fabbed, or left out that even for a second makes you think its ok to arrest/detain a man walking home with a child. Did he have kidnapper tattooed on his forehead or what?
    Last edited by VW_Factor; 02-13-2012 at 01:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

  16. #16
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    the point is, without knowing the facts and circumstances known to the officer (assuming arguendo the fact pattern as presented is true), one cannot know if the stop was justified or not
    Convenient how a few purposely continue to ignore the fact that the "storyteller" was stopped TWICE. Arrested AFTER it was already determined there was no kidnapping.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Quote Originally Posted by VW_Factor View Post
    Without knowing the facts?!

    Are you ******* kidding me?

    A man and a little girl walking home, is RAS for what? Under what circumstances could this be looked upon as RAS for detainment let alone a crime of any sort.

    What sort of facts would think here to be fabbed, or left out that even for a second makes you think its ok to arrest/detain a man walking home with a child. Did he have kidnapper tattooed on his forehead or what?
    again, you don't know the facts and circumstances

    i was pulled over at gunpoint and proned out on the sidewalk driving home once

    why?

    because i was a minority?

    because i was unshaven?

    because i had a political sticker on my van?

    i could make all sorts of inferences like that

    once i learned that the cops had RS for me as an armed robbery suspect, though, THEN i got it

    again, unless we have a bit more to go on, there is no way to rationally believe that the stop was or wasn't justified.

    bald speculation is nice, but it's frequently wrong, and i prefer to operate from knowledge not ignorance

    ymmv

  18. #18
    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    again, you don't know the facts and circumstances
    You didn't answer my question.

    What on earth could a man walking home with a child be doing to cause RAS for arrest/detainment?
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady
    I am no victim, just a poor college student who looks to the day where the rich have the living piss taxed out of them.

  19. #19
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    The facts seem clear enough, and the story could have been less.... what's the word I'm looking for here?

    The acts of the department were so very wrong. But, I wonder will this wonderfully written published story be what the person (s), if, suing/sued remember when taking the stand. Will the creative emotional version speak at the stand, too others, or will the basic facts/information be given.


  20. #20
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    The facts seem clear enough, and the story could have been less....
    It just hit me; it wasn't a word after all, it was if I was reading from the pages of Reader's Digest. I'm going to say the author/storyteller did not pursue anything more than places to publish.

  21. #21
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    again, you don't know the facts and circumstances

    i was pulled over at gunpoint and proned out on the sidewalk driving home once

    why?

    because i was a minority?

    because i was unshaven?

    because i had a political sticker on my van?

    i could make all sorts of inferences like that

    once i learned that the cops had RS for me as an armed robbery suspect, though, THEN i got it

    again, unless we have a bit more to go on, there is no way to rationally believe that the stop was or wasn't justified.

    bald speculation is nice, but it's frequently wrong, and i prefer to operate from knowledge not ignorance

    ymmv
    I was illegally arrested for trying to file a complaint for an illegal arrest at gun point for OC'ing. Guess what none of those facts appeared in the police reports, no RAS either.

    Until something is proved that this story is fabricated or untrue it is upsetting because this happens all too often I would conjecture it happens way more than reported. Sometimes I think it happens to generate FIR's to justify having the officer out in the field and the continual taking of tax payers money.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  22. #22
    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    the problem with stories like this is everybody, based on their biases, will naturally assume the veracity of the fact pattern if it reflects on their metanarrative.

    iow, what we have here is claims. they may or may not be true and/or at least distorted.

    furthermore, i can't speak to that state, but in this state, an officer could certainly question a 5 yr old in many circ's w/o a parent present. depends on whether they were a suspect, a witness, etc.
    Let me take a wild guess here. The P in your username stands for police and the LO stand for law officer or something of that nature?
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
    Will Rogers

  23. #23
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    again, you don't know the facts and circumstances

    i was pulled over at gunpoint and proned out on the sidewalk driving home once

    why?

    because i was a minority?

    because i was unshaven?

    because i had a political sticker on my van?

    i could make all sorts of inferences like that

    once i learned that the cops had RS for me as an armed robbery suspect, though, THEN i got it

    again, unless we have a bit more to go on, there is no way to rationally believe that the stop was or wasn't justified.

    bald speculation is nice, but it's frequently wrong, and i prefer to operate from knowledge not ignorance

    ymmv
    So, what did you do about this 'proning out' incident?

    What were the specific articulable facts that lead the cops to 'infer' that you were their BG?

    Were there any other proning outs during the course of their investigation?

    Could their, the cops who proned you out, inferences to gain RAS be proven as justifiable in front of a judge?

    Were/are you OK with getting proned out as long as you 'get it'?

    Does your local PD typically prone out citizens?

    ....does not pass the smell test....
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  24. #24
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PALO View Post
    <snip> that I can actually have at least a reasonble belief is a credible account and where I have at least a reasonable belief I understand the fact pattern from all sides, not from an account that is probably myopic AT BEST
    So, we are to take your 'proned out' story based on your word alone? But, the linked story in the OP is not to be believed absent more facts?

    ....got it.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    I was detained/had an encounter, with a bellingham police officer whose name is OFFICER ALLEN BASS. He had no RAS to harass me, but he did anyway. I was "arrested" because he drew his weapon and, at times pointed it directly at my chest. I received a copy of his "police report" and it was a total fabrication. To put it in plain english, he LIED in his report. This incident is still being processed, but as it progresses, I will post his report.
    Last edited by MSG Laigaie; 02-15-2012 at 01:51 PM. Reason: speling
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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