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The answer that most CC'ers give in opposition to OC

.40S&W

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Well technically her ethnicity/race would be caucasian. It's her nationality that would be African. I know I know splitting hairs.
 

SouthernBoy

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Well technically her ethnicity/race would be caucasian. It's her nationality that would be African. I know I know splitting hairs.

You and I know that but it doesn't serve the interests of certain people. For example, how many times have you heard Central and South Americans referred to as a race in some way or another? Or "Hispanics" referred to as Spanish? There are very few Spanish people in this country and Spaniards look pretty much like other western Europeans. I suppose it's who is to gain and who is to lose when it comes to twisting and altering terms and labels.
 
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.40S&W

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I agree. Whenever some people hear Spanish they immediately think of Mexico which leads to Hispanic and then Latino etc etc totally forgoing Europe altogether. It's like anything with race, religion, etc etc it serves to push a political agenda and/or meet a quota.
 

William Fisher

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When you read the Defensive/CC carry forums, CC-ers get all hot and bothered taking their gun, under two layers of clothing in a walk through Wally World. There's more than one who has reported on having done a concealed walk-through successfully (wut?).

Besides the people who go to Wal&mart being so darn strange that people are busy looking at them, the firearm is hidden, non-visible, concealed, sheltered from view. It's like taking an invisible dog to the dog-park and exchanging high fives afterwards with other non-dog walkers. :)

Get one of those harness leashes that are pre-fixed to look like you're walking an invisible dog and state, "While I carry my firearm concealed, I also walk my dog concealed". That there needs to go on a T-Shirt
 

deepdiver

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First, I must say that your post is very well composed! Yeah, it's long-ish, but sometimes we can't say all we need to say in order to successfully communicate our thoughts in 25 words or less. I think "most" - as people tend to use the word - is generally anecdotal, and what they are really saying is "most people that I know" or "most people that I have met (or "talked with") express a belief that...". We would have to know - or have spoken with - millions of people before we could use the term "most" in the literal sense. There are a lot of inefficiencies in the way we use the English language: cant, idiom, street-slang and jargon are the 'order of the day' for many people. Our unintentional abuse of "most" seems to be just one example of the many communication shorthands in which "most" people seem to indulge. ;) Pax...
Thanks for the positive comment and for actually reading that. I know it was somewhat rambling not to mention very long. Actually Iwas suprised at how long it was when it posted.
 

sraacke

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Thanks for the positive comment and for actually reading that. I know it was somewhat rambling not to mention very long. Actually Iwas suprised at how long it was when it posted.

I also read through the whole thing and agree with most of your points. If you don't mind I may copy and paste it (while giving you full credit of course) in another discussion forum.
 

deepdiver

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I also read through the whole thing and agree with most of your points. If you don't mind I may copy and paste it (while giving you full credit of course) in another discussion forum.

It's kind of rambling but you are welcome to use it if you think it helps further our 2A goals.
 

IdahoOpenCarry

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I'm just saying that to say "most" in these forums without the context of "most of the CCers I meet at guns shows" or "most of the CCers I interact with on such and such CC forum" is probably pretty inaccurate.

I think you misread the title of my thread. " The answer that most CC'ers give in opposition to OC"
The statement says , of those CC'ers to whom I spoke who stated that they opposed OC, "most" of those gave the excuse that OC makes people uncomfortable. I was speaking about the CC'ers who oppose OC, not all CC'ers in general.

However, the rest of your article was good.
Tony@IdahoOpenCarry.org
Open Carry is the Beautiful Bold Face of the 2nd Amendment
 

REALteach4u

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When I man our Idaho Open Carry booth at various shows, I find myself debating many CC'ers who oppose OC. Their most common response is, "It makes people feel uncomfortable."
My answer to them is, "How do you know?" The truth of the matter is that "THEY" feel uncomfortable with OC. They are "gun shy!" Even though Open Carry is the most beautiful, bold representation of the 2nd Amendment, they refuse to participate with excuses that just don't wash.
Everyone has heard this one, "It makes you a target for the BG's." There is no recorded evidence that an OC'er has been targeted by a BG. The the excuse is bogus and reveals that they are afraid of a BG ghost that doesn't exist.
And the most ridiculous excuse given by opponents is, "OC'ers are just posturing."
The best answer to "posturing" was written byNavyLCDR in the USACarry.com forum, taking a portion of his response from the dictionary.
pos-ture
1.a. A position of the body or of body parts: a sitting posture.
b. An attitude; a pose: assumed a posture of angry defiance.
2. A Characteristic way of bearing one's body; carriage: stood with good posture.
3. Relative placement or arrangement; the posture of the buildings on the land.
4. A stance or disposition with regard to something: "Those bases are essentially to our military posture in the Middle East" (Gerard Smith).
5. A frame of mind affecting one's thoughts or behavior; an overall attitude.

NavyLCDR goes on to say, "Open carry makes a visible statement to the criminal, and whoever else wants to observe it, that I am not going to be and easy and defenseless target for criminal activity. Nothing wrong or evil about that at all.

By the way, I am angrily defiant. I am angry that criminals have been given free reign to do whatever the hell they want to in this country with little hindrance. I simply choose to provide that hindrance to their actions.

I choose to engage in an active deterrence to crime, rather than passively possess the means to defend myself against a criminal who has already utilized their "element of surprise" to gain the upper hand prompting the need for defensive action."

End of quote by NavyLCDR

Open Carry is public relations for the 2nd Amendment. Be a good ambassador.
Visit our forum at IdahoOpenCarry.org
Tony@IdahoOpenCarry.org
Only the Good Guys (and Girls) Open Carry


Why are you debating them when you already know how most of them will react? It seems that it might be more fitting to find a way to penetrate their comfort barriers so they will open up to the idea of lawful OC. It's quite easy to tell when someone you're around isn't comfortable. I'll give a close to me example.

I can CC and OC where I am. My father is from the commie State of Illinois and is anti-gun. When they came down for a visit last month he gave me the firm eyeball on the pistol I was wearing. He's seen it multiple times and knows I do not leave home without it as I believe it's my personal responsibility to my family. I had to ask if there was a problem, full well knowing what the problem was. He painfully pointed it out. So I reminded him why our close friends in STL bought their first firearm and obtained their CCW endorsements, it's because he was coming home from work and had some scumbag point a 45ACP at him sitting at a stop light. I reminded my father that it only takes a split-second in time to alter your beliefs on firearms and that they had better get with the program before anything dramatic occurs in the near future. It won't matter, he'll be the one that will require a life-threatening contact to alter his perceptions.

Some of the CC folks are soft-targets when it comes to tearing down the walls between OC and CC; Doc might even be able to attest to that. Find the opening and exploit it, but do so softly as that approach seems to be more effective than putting up a testosterone filled challenge that starts the "I'm right, you're wrong" argument. Remind them that we're on the same side no matter what their carry stance is.
 
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sraacke

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It's kind of rambling but you are welcome to use it if you think it helps further our 2A goals.
I started at thread at the LOCAL forum and used your post to help guide the discussion.
I also posted the following to the same thread that I thought you, and others here, may be interested in reading.
.....................


A similar take on this is an article our ownLOCAL member Brannon/NOLACOPUSMC wrote for the LSA Newsletter and was printed in their Jan-April 2011 newsletter which can be found here-
http://www.louisianashooting.com/in...e_newscat_id=2&home_newscat_name=Newsletters .
It starts on page 15 and is Titled "Neophyte, Ninja... or somewhere in between?
The line between gun guy and simply responsibly armed."
Brannon brings up several points that are expressed by Deepdiver. In fact he starts his article with this...
If you are reading this, there is a high probability that you are a self -described “gun guy” or “gun
gal.” A gun person is one who has a personal interest in guns as a hobby, and that interest takes them past
the utilitarian interest of guns as simple survival tools. It is a personal investment of time and energy in guns
beyond their simple use as a mean to an end.
Replace the word gun with almost any other noun, and we know a friend or neighbor who is the
same way. There is the “lawn guy” down the block who treats his riding mower like a gold--plated space
shuttle. He meticulously changes the oil every 2.75 cuttings, keeps it in the garage and not only washes, but
also waxes his prized tool of lawn maintenance after each clipping.
One step up the evolutionary ladder of privately coveted machinery would be the “car guy.” At
least once per weekend, his prized visual representation of his manhood in rolled onto the carport for a
thorough washing, waxing, vacuuming, and general Q-tip detailing that is more evasive a search for dust than
the average Joe receives from TSA for having a Glock keychain.
For these people, and the gun guy, the use, maintenance, collecting, showing off, discussing, and
overall immersion in their chosen hobby has a personal and sometimes emotional investment...along
with most of their expendable income. However, for many, albeit MOST people, a firearm is sometimes
regarded as a necessary evil in the same manner as a fire extinguisher, smoke detector, spare tire,
flood insurance, or seatbelts—something that is a life requirement for the prudent.
Because they do not have a personal interest outside of the utilitarian use of the device, they
seldom take their level of involvement (training) in its application beyond that which is the bare necessity
to meet the most basic function—immediate self defense.

The rest of the article is very much along the same lines as what Deepdiver was trying to get across with his forum post.
Since I don't have permission from either Brannon or LSA to repost the entire article here I ask that you take a couple minutes to read it at the link I provided and tell me what you think.
 

j4l

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You and I know that but it doesn't serve the interests of certain people. For example, how many times have you heard Central and South Americans referred to as a race in some way or another? Or "Hispanics" referred to as Spanish? There are very few Spanish people in this country and Spaniards look pretty much like other western Europeans. I suppose it's who is to gain and who is to lose when it comes to twisting and altering terms and labels.

Not to side-track the OP's post much further than it has already-but this touches on a point I see every day at work, with birth /death records and state documents: There are a LOT of folks out there from various countries (most of them "latin" american) who swear up and down that their nationality IS their race...and insist on being identified as such.

They get mighty irate when then find out that, no, Mr. Mexico, Mexican is NOT a race. Nor is it even an ethnicity. It's a Nationality, ONLY. Brazillians and Columbians often insist on being listed as Brazil or Columbia for their race....bzzzzzzzzzzzt. wrong answer, not happening.
National pride is one thing. All well and good (despite the fact that you nearly died fleeing the place from which you originated, to come HERE, for crying out loud...) . But it is not one's race, most of the time.

Same goes for comments on various forums and such- where if you say anything which a person of Mexican or whatever origins dislikes, you are immediately labeled a "racist" or that your comment is somehow "racist". It's not. It's Nationalist, if anything... and yet, folks wonder why their homeleands are labeled as 3rd or even 4th-world stinkholes.... unreal..



On topic- I dont get the OC VERSUS CC thing. I see clear advantages and disadvantages of both. I feel one should be able choose either as the option, appropriate to their environs at any given time. Not to the exclusion of one vs. the other.
 

Marco

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Also, they're black. Not African-American, most were born and raised in the US and have no ties (besides ancestral) to africa. I am white not a "German-American". Treat other races how you want to be treated, it is a large step against racism.


True. I have only know three African-Americans in my life... and one was white.

Why involve race???
Why not treat everyone the way you want to be treated?


While, I'm not a fan of the Hyphen american names the above thinking is ass backwards:exclaim:

Those Americans that can trace their ancestory back to African slaves can truely claim African American status as their ancestors didn't have a choice as to whether they wanted to become americans or not.
And why in your backward thinking are whites deemed africans!! They didn't originate there, they invaded and stole and tricked their way in.

Property stolen from one and given to another is still property of the orginal owner!

Just because you take kittens and raise them as dogs, doesn't make them dogs.

While modern day African-Americans have few if any ties to their great grand parents (or further back) homeland doesn't mean they should lose the right to claim those ties.

I don't see you folks telling Italians not to refer to themselves as Italian-Americans.
I'll offer to drive you to Little Italy in NY so you can shout it from the roof tops.


NOW, I must ask what does this diatribe have to do with OC??

Please stop posting this NON SENSE especially on a forum that has little (nothing) to with Ancesteral orgins, it just makes you seem like a Racist.


BOT:

IMHO, true supporters of enumerated rights shouldn't have a problem with OC, CC or no carry.
While each mode isn't right for everyone they should support the other persons choice.
 
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deepdiver

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The rest of the article is very much along the same lines as what Deepdiver was trying to get across with his forum post.
Since I don't have permission from either Brannon or LSA to repost the entire article here I ask that you take a couple minutes to read it at the link I provided and tell me what you think.

Obviously, I think his points were brilliant. :D Seriously, I think he makes good, solid points about our being mindful of the less gun-wordly position of many who are just interested enough to support 2A for personal defense and to own/carry for that reason. That issue was really brought to my attention a few weeks ago when a local church held a concealed carry class (required in MO) which my wife took and I attended as an observer. We had a great cross-section of age, experience and overall interest. Most just wanted the ability to legally carry. While fascinated to some extent with fine points of carry/shooting, few were interested beyond the basics.

Glad my late night, tired rambling could help with the discussion.
 

Hardbuck90

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snip After all, given the sheer numbers we have, can anyone imagine what we could accomplish if we stopped spinning our wheels on debates that will never see a winner and we actually did pull together as a cohesive whole? The entire gun community...OC'ers, CC'ers,..across the entire country, on 1000's of forums just like this....... The anti's wouldn't stand a chance.

And, I'll bet that little tid bit scares the anti's something awful.


I heard that they're 17 trillion strong and we all know how good they are at math, we don't stand a chance :shocker:
 

Glock9mmOldStyle

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I heard that they're 17 trillion strong and we all know how good they are at math, we don't stand a chance :shocker:

Well said. According to their figures we are .000000009% of the population :eek:

Carry on openly.

Side note. I have a friend who insisted that CC was the only way to carry. I carry a full size pistol Glock17 (primary) in a retention holster. He gave me all the usual crap about tacti-cool advantage blah..blah..blah.. I then said here's an idea let's clear/safety check our weapons we were at his rural private property away from public view. It was a clear cool fall day. I said we'll stand next to each other and draw in a safe direction and see who can clear their holster 1st. My G17 against his LCP in a clip on (no retention) IWB nylon holster. Round one - I clearly win. He says "my jacket got in the way". I say fine take it off and just tuck your shirt like you normally do. Again I beat him by at least 50%. He says well, "they'll see you coming and be ready!" I say and so will I.
You on the other hand will be attacked because they won't know you are armed and you have just demonstrated how difficult it is for you to deploy your weapon quickly, So who really has the advantage? From him - dumb look & crickets chirping.
 

Hardbuck90

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Well said. According to their figures we are .000000009% of the population :eek:

Carry on openly.

Side note. I have a friend who insisted that CC was the only way to carry. I carry a full size pistol Glock17 (primary) in a retention holster. He gave me all the usual crap about tacti-cool advantage blah..blah..blah.. I then said here's an idea let's clear/safety check our weapons we were at his rural private property away from public view. It was a clear cool fall day. I said we'll stand next to each other and draw in a safe direction and see who can clear their holster 1st. My G17 against his LCP in a clip on (no retention) IWB nylon holster. Round one - I clearly win. He says "my jacket got in the way". I say fine take it off and just tuck your shirt like you normally do. Again I beat him by at least 50%. He says well, "they'll see you coming and be ready!" I say and so will I.
You on the other hand will be attacked because they won't know you are armed and you have just demonstrated how difficult it is for you to deploy your weapon quickly, So who really has the advantage? From him - dumb look & crickets chirping.

Haha "them seeing you and being ready" as we all know, translates to them avoiding you
 
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badey

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What this "element of surprise" mentality REALLY means--and EVERONE needs to LISTEN to this, and realize (and ADMIT) that it is TRUE--is that CCers who believe this are the kind of people who WANT to shoot some bad guy, and are harboring vigilante tendencies. If you are CCing, and someone attacks you because you look like an unarmed sheeple, and you shoot them, that is nothing more than "entrapment"--you have intentionally "set up" a thug to think you are prey, JUST SO you can shoot one. Not all CCers believe this, so I'm not saying all CCers are sociopathic vigilantes, but some are, and we ALL need to admit that, and deal with the reality of that concept...

OCers, on the other hand, put their means of defense right out in the open for all the world to see. They make their condition of preparedness, and their unwillingness to be a victim OBVIOUS. They are attempting to AVOID a violent attack in the first place--because the LAST THING that an OCer wants to do is actually draw their firearm.

You totally blow past the idea of situational awareness. Most CCers live by the rule of not going to stupid places, with stupid people, and doing stupid things. If CCers that want the element of surprise were truly trying to entrap people, they would be hanging out in high crime areas, waiting for a situation in which they needed to use their firearm.

This kind of thinking that you have posted is what alienates CCers and OCers.

Furthermore, CCing allows you to choose when to deploy your firearm if/when you need to. If you are in a situation, you have to deploy your firearm BEFORE the BG sees it or engages you (if he has seen it). This may mean that you have to fire with insufficient backstop, etc. A CCer may be able to maneuver to a better position, and wait for the best moment to deploy his/her weapon.
 

Grapeshot

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You totally blow past the idea of situational awareness. Most CCers live by the rule of not going to stupid places, with stupid people, and doing stupid things. If CCers that want the element of surprise were truly trying to entrap people, they would be hanging out in high crime areas, waiting for a situation in which they needed to use their firearm.

This kind of thinking that you have posted is what alienates CCers and OCers.

Furthermore, CCing allows you to choose when to deploy your firearm if/when you need to. If you are in a situation, you have to deploy your firearm BEFORE the BG sees it or engages you (if he has seen it). This may mean that you have to fire with insufficient backstop, etc. A CCer may be able to maneuver to a better position, and wait for the best moment to deploy his/her weapon.

All good practitioners of self-defense promote and practice situational awareness. OCers do not go, any more than CCers go, "stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things." We strongly support avoiding problems and problem areas.

CCing does make one look like a typical victim though - there is no visual deterrent.

Frankly, I do not care whether you OC, CC or noC so long as you do not contribute to disallowing us that very personal choice. An OCer has the same options that a CCer has............unless you are subscribing to that fallacious belief that the LAC OCing will be the victim of a preemptive strike - that is more rare than a golden unicorn, ain't no such animal.

BTW - this is an OC site/forum so please do not spend your time explaining where we are wrong. Believe me, we have heard it all and the arguments against have been found to be wanting. Do spend some time here and maybe walk in our shoes - at least take the opportunity to attend a local OC meet n' greet in your area.
 
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badey

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All good practitioners of self-defense promote and practice situational awareness. OCers do not go, any more than CCers go, "stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things." We strongly support avoiding problems and problem areas.

CCing does make one look like a typical victim though - there is no visual deterrent.

Frankly, I do not care whether you OC, CC or noC so long as you do not contribute to disallowing us that very personal choice. An OCer has the same options that a CCer has............unless you are subscribing to that fallacious belief that the LAC OCing will be the victim of a preemptive strike - that is more rare than a golden unicorn, ain't no such animal.

BTW - this is an OC site/forum so please do not spend your time explaining where we are wrong. Believe me, we have heard it all and the arguments against have been found to be wanting. Do spend some time here and maybe walk in our shoes - at least take the opportunity to attend a local OC meet n' greet in your area.

I personally support open carry, and the fight for constitutional carry, I just disliked the tenor of the post that I responded to, and chose to challenge it.

I do not think OC is a wrong choice for defense, but neither do I think that concealing a gun is in any way a cop-out.

I would love to attend a local meet n' greet in my area. Where would I find more information about that.
 

Grapeshot

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I personally support open carry, and the fight for constitutional carry, I just disliked the tenor of the post that I responded to, and chose to challenge it.

I do not think OC is a wrong choice for defense, but neither do I think that concealing a gun is in any way a cop-out.

I would love to attend a local meet n' greet in my area. Where would I find more information about that.

In Dreamer's defense, he has recently relocated to Maryland after living in NC for years. I think he has been traumatized by the inequity of the MD laws and challenging attitudes within their government.

Meet n' Greets are posted/stickied at the top of each state sub- forum on OCDO. You might also peruse the PAFOA - they are a very active PA group and have quite a few events throughout the year.
 
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