The answer that most CC'ers give in opposition to OC

hermannr · Mar 9, 2012

I was thinking of Dreamer when I read Judge Legg's decision...you know that means, until MD can get an injunction, win an appeal, or rewrite their law, there is no license needed to carry in MD anymore. They cannot charge you any longer under the old law, it does not exist any more.

Grapeshot · Mar 9, 2012

hermannr said:
I was thinking of Dreamer when I read Judge Legg's decision...you know that means, until MD can get an injunction, win an appeal, or rewrite their law, there is no license needed to carry in MD anymore. They cannot charge you any longer under the old law, it does not exist any more.

Not at all sure that I would agree with that conclusion at all - did I miss where he said the law was null and void in its entirety?

I believe the permit requirement is still valid, but that the "may issue" has become "shall issue." Hard to say when this will actually bear fruit though - it may be years.

Dr Phil · Mar 12, 2012

Grapeshot said:
I believe the permit requirement is still valid, but that the "may issue" has become "shall issue." Hard to say when this will actually bear fruit though - it may be years.

Exactly. Before in MD you had to give what the courts decided was a good reason to have a permit, they had no obligation to give you one. Now anyone who meets the criteria must be issued a permit. Although the state is appealing the decision I think, so nothing has changed so far. I've been following the issue, since I'm a VA permit holder but I frequent MD. I'd love to have reciprocity in MD, and I'm hoping that's the direction this takes.

gunns · Mar 20, 2012

This is the first time I looked at this thread. I don't open carry much, but now that its getting nice out, I will most likely be OC'ing much more. I do prefer CC, but that's just me. I have nothing against either, but some of the comments on other forums is pretty disturbing. I see more angry people on these forums then I do here. Seems everyone here for the most part is level headed.

I definitely picked the right forum to join.

Glock9mmOldStyle · Mar 20, 2012

gunns said:
This is the first time I looked at this thread. I don't open carry much, but now that its getting nice out, I will most likely be OC'ing much more. I do prefer CC, but that's just me. I have nothing against either, but some of the comments on other forums is pretty disturbing. I see more angry people on these forums then I do here. Seems everyone here for the most part is level headed.

I definitely picked the right forum to join.

Yep! Here most people have open minds. We understand why some choose to CC and that's their choice as to what works best for them. Many CC folk look down on OCers. Not sure why, as these are often the very same folks who cheer on the OC of pistols by their PD's. I always ask my CC pals - why are police lives worth more than mine or theirs?

Truckdriver1975 · Mar 20, 2012

I've been carrying for about a year and just started reading gun forums in the last couple months. I can't believe how divided the gun community is. I think either method is completely acceptable and I've recently started OCing more often. The more I do it with no negative encounters beyond the occasional dirty look the less self conscious I am about it. At a place where I think people may be uncomfortable I switch to IWB. I don't understand the hateful comments that so many people direct at those who don't think like they do.

carsontech · Mar 20, 2012

I think the following is relevant to the topic of this thread:

I went to Academy Sports to buy another BUG a few days ago, a Sig P238. This Sig is bad @55. Night sights, fiber optic front sight, extended mag with x-grip...

Anyway, after getting the paper work squared away, I went to look for a holster. While looking at the holsters, one of the gentleman at the gun counter came to see if I needed any help picking one out. I didn't need any help, especially seeing that all they had in stock was Uncle Mike's holsters (not a fan), but I was interested in seeing what holster the guy would recommend and why.

He goes on to show me an Uncle Mike's belt slide holster. He also explained what he liked about it and that he especially likes it because of how great it hugs the gun to the body. Then he tells me that he loves to carry concealed in his yard using this very same holster, and it doesn't print at all with his usual choice of clothing.

At that point I asked him "why don't just carry openly on your property". He just looked at me, so I explained to him about deterrence, but after that he wasn't interested in hearing any more of it.

He said he carries concealed because he would "rather shoot the bad guy, than let him get away."

Also, my wife was having a conversation with one of our friends who carries concealed while at his house. She talked to him about carrying openly and explained to him about deterrence, comfort, speed of draw, etc.

When she asked him why he didn't carry openly at home, or whenever he can, he responded with "because I want to shoot the guy."

carsontech · Mar 21, 2012

I forgot to add that the Academy Sports employee mentioned he lived in Texas and open carried his handguns "all the time into the city" the 60s and 70s. I informed him that the carrying of a handgun, concealed or openly, has been illegal since around the 1870s. I went on to explain how Texas has only allowed its citizens to carry concealed, with a permit, for only a little over 15 years now, but did have a confusing "traveling" exception since the 1870s.

He didn't change his story after that. I thought he was full of it at that time, but who knows, maybe things were different back in the 60's as long as the cops liked you.

GhostOfJefferson · Mar 21, 2012

Grapeshot said:
All good practitioners of self-defense promote and practice situational awareness. OCers do not go, any more than CCers go, "stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things." We strongly support avoiding problems and problem areas.

CCing does make one look like a typical victim though - there is no visual deterrent.

Frankly, I do not care whether you OC, CC or noC so long as you do not contribute to disallowing us that very personal choice. An OCer has the same options that a CCer has............unless you are subscribing to that fallacious belief that the LAC OCing will be the victim of a preemptive strike - that is more rare than a golden unicorn, ain't no such animal.

BTW - this is an OC site/forum so please do not spend your time explaining where we are wrong. Believe me, we have heard it all and the arguments against have been found to be wanting. Do spend some time here and maybe walk in our shoes - at least take the opportunity to attend a local OC meet n' greet in your area.

To be honest, the notion of "don't go bad areas" is a canard at this point. Crime and violence can and does occur anywhere and everywhere, and people are being delusional if they think there is some magical place where violence cannot happen. I live in a very afluent and pleasant area of Ohio, and have seen just recently that some thug was following people home after they stopped at the ATM, following them directly to their driveway, and confronting them in their garage before they got out of the car. We have also seen a thug posing as a policeman, one county over, pulling over women and raping them. There are no safe havens.

I know what's meant by "don't go dangerous places" in general, but somehow it doesn't hold up in reality. Sure, inner cities suck, but you still may find yourself needing to judge deploy/not deploy, defend/not defend at the town fair of Super Niceville.

Agree with your posts in general though.

sawah · Mar 21, 2012

I think there is one carry that trumps OC in specific situations and that's hand carry. When can you hand carry? Two times. One, say (and I don't espouse this) you drive up to your house and the front door is open and maybe your kids are in a back bedroom (some reason to go in), and alarm is going off. You clear alarm and hand carry as you clear the house, firearm (perhaps) hidden behind your leg.

Second, you're in a dicey area to pick up an item off Craig's list. Before leaving the house, both hands free you put your firearm in a vest or jacket pocket. You have a revolver and have practiced shooting through clothing. Finger off the trigger, you get extra time to declare a threat, to use SA, to wait until virtually the last second to fire, and already 'having the drop' on the BG/perp, you are a step ahead of the 8-ball. You can even pump up your de-escalation skills, knowing you have the draw.

Grapeshot · Mar 21, 2012

GhostOfJefferson said:
To be honest, the notion of "don't go bad areas" is a canard at this point. Crime and violence can and does occur anywhere and everywhere, and people are being delusional if they think there is some magical place where violence cannot happen. I live in a very afluent and pleasant area of Ohio, and have seen just recently that some thug was following people home after they stopped at the ATM, following them directly to their driveway, and confronting them in their garage before they got out of the car. We have also seen a thug posing as a policeman, one county over, pulling over women and raping them. There are no safe havens.

I know what's meant by "don't go dangerous places" in general, but somehow it doesn't hold up in reality. Sure, inner cities suck, but you still may find yourself needing to judge deploy/not deploy, defend/not defend at the town fair of Super Niceville.

Agree with your posts in general though.

Indeed bad things do happen to good people virtually anywhere and at any time - consider that a given.

The intent was to reinforce the message (nothing more) that going into a known/recognized high crime area is better avoided if possible.

GhostOfJefferson · Mar 21, 2012

Grapeshot said:
Indeed bad things do happen to good people virtually anywhere and at any time - consider that a given.

The intent was to reinforce the message (nothing more) that going into a known/recognized high crime area is better avoided if possible.

Oh, I totally agree with you on that. I was more addressing the CC'ers I hear who sometimes throw out the "you just want OC to go to dangerous places and show off, and maybe you wouldn't need to OC if you stayed out of dangerous places!" stuff. But yeah, there is always a scale of risk to consider and weigh. Maybe I'm just disturbed at how some of the Diversity from the inner city has been coming out in droves to sweet little suburbia and rural areas as of late. Not that it has never happened, there just seems to be a vastly increasing amount of occurances here.

Note: The "diversity" here can be of Irish and/or German descent more likely than not, I wasn't indicating race, rather, culture. The two gentleman I've noted would be, as I hear, quite at home walking around Berlin or Dublin in Europe.

MamaLiberty · Mar 21, 2012

Classic!

deepdiver said:
When we are as passionate as we tend to be on OC/2A, when we talk to people less involved we can sometimes be like the parent whose kid comes home and asks "Mom/Dad, where did I come from" and then after spending 3 hours explaining human reproduction have the kid say, "I still don't get it. Suzy says she's from Cleveland."

Oh, this is classic. And so true. Find out what people are actually asking so you can provide the information they want and need, if possible.

And my answer to those who say my OC gun makes them "uncomfortable" - said as nicely as possible, "That's not my problem."

Of course, it will depend a lot on where you live. Here in Wyoming, they just have to live with it. Most of the people who enter my home are armed, OC or CC. I am armed wherever I go, all the time. If someone doesn't accept my openly carried firearm (rare here), that's fine with me. I'll go somewhere else.

rushcreek2 · Mar 21, 2012

I have a Colorado CHP, and a Texas CHL that covers my ability to carry for self defense in every state that I intend to visit because state recognition of my CHP/CHL determines whether or not I enter and spread my wealth around there.

My preferred version of CCW is an IWB holster carried under the "shroud" of a ventilated golf shirt in warm weather.

My preferred version of OC is an IWB holster carried under the "shroud" of a ventilated golf shirt in warm weather.

During "chilly" weather my preferred cary is under a jacket, coat, or sweater.

My preferred manner of CARRY would probably require a CCW permit/license in most jurisdictions, but I'll be the one to decide whether or not it is technically "concealed" at any given time.

I suppose that is why I am a bit mystified by all of the friction between what seems to be two camps regarding exercise of the right to bear arms.

If a person wants to keep their weapon hidden from view -then by all means conceal the dang thing !

If a person thinks their chances of becoming a victim of predatory crime is reduced by allowing some level of display depending upon circumstances - that is their call.

I would rather a BG be able to observe my weapon, and not select me as a target than the alternative of my having to shoot him and then justify why I felt the necessity to shoot the "good boy".

All of this "MY way is the best way because........." only serves to fuel this never-ending argument that obstructs our joint efforts to preserve our constitutionally protected right to bear arms for the purpose of lawful self defense.

The CC only bunch is beginning to annoy me more than the Brady Bunch.

FTG-05 · Mar 21, 2012

Well said, rush. Especially the part about how you decide to spread the wealth. I choose where my money goes and it doesn't go to people that don't support the 2nd amendment.

Thanks,

OC for ME · Mar 22, 2012

rushcreek2 said:
<snip> All of this "MY way is the best way because........." only serves to fuel this never-ending argument that obstructs our joint efforts to preserve our constitutionally protected right to bear arms for the purpose of lawful self defense.

The CC only bunch is beginning to annoy me more than the Brady Bunch.

I was right with ya until the above. The difference between the OC and 'CC Only' factions, here in Missouri anyway, and in my opinion, is that the CC Only faction seems to be fine with any existing law that restricts OC. Or, will not put forth the same time/energy/resources to aid the OC effort here in Missouri as they did for CC. They don't OC and won't OC, no big deal.

The CC faction here in Missouri must be lauded and applauded for their herculean efforts to get the CC privilege enacted in Missouri, to be sure.

But, they have their cake now, whether or not other factions get their cake is not their problem. Considering that Missouri has pockets of OC is illegal despite our state constitution's protection of all Missouri citizen's right to bear arms clause. The CC Only faction seems to be a reluctant partner in our state's current 2A/Art. I, Sec 23 related legislative agenda.

The CC Only faction in Missouri, and likely everywhere else, is NOT the enemy of our RKBA as is the Brady Bunch, they are an valuable ally, a reluctant ally from time to time, but a ally none the less.

badey · Mar 23, 2012

rushcreek2 said:
I have a Colorado CHP, and a Texas CHL that covers my ability to carry for self defense in every state that I intend to visit because state recognition of my CHP/CHL determines whether or not I enter and spread my wealth around there.

My preferred version of CCW is an IWB holster carried under the "shroud" of a ventilated golf shirt in warm weather.

My preferred version of OC is an IWB holster carried under the "shroud" of a ventilated golf shirt in warm weather.

During "chilly" weather my preferred cary is under a jacket, coat, or sweater.

My preferred manner of CARRY would probably require a CCW permit/license in most jurisdictions, but I'll be the one to decide whether or not it is technically "concealed" at any given time.

I suppose that is why I am a bit mystified by all of the friction between what seems to be two camps regarding exercise of the right to bear arms.

If a person wants to keep their weapon hidden from view -then by all means conceal the dang thing !

If a person thinks their chances of becoming a victim of predatory crime is reduced by allowing some level of display depending upon circumstances - that is their call.

I would rather a BG be able to observe my weapon, and not select me as a target than the alternative of my having to shoot him and then justify why I felt the necessity to shoot the "good boy".

All of this "MY way is the best way because........." only serves to fuel this never-ending argument that obstructs our joint efforts to preserve our constitutionally protected right to bear arms for the purpose of lawful self defense.

The CC only bunch is beginning to annoy me more than the Brady Bunch.

From the perspective of a former CC-only guy (who now OCs sometimes), I associated OC with the people on youtube who purposely get officers to notice them, because they like attention, like this guy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBWghJrVeYA&feature=youtu.be

I think that once I looked more into open carry, and realized that most open carriers just want to exercise their rights, without getting attention, I became a supporter and an OCer (sometimes).

CCers are afraid (as I used to be) that OCers are going to garner too much negative attention, and get OC and CC banned, and damage the 2A cause.

I think, as with all things, educating CCers about the use of rights, and to not accept the pressure from the anti-2A crowd to cave by concealing, then OC will be much more accepted. However, on the other hand (and rushcreek, this is not directed at you or anyone else in the forum, because your frustration with CCers is, in my opinion, merited to some extent), insulting CCers and being "in their face" is not going to help.

I was converted to seeing the benefits of OC by reasonable and friendly OC discussions with OCers. Now, I am an advocate of OC as well as CC. As the old cliche goes, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Truckdriver1975 · Mar 23, 2012

badey said:
From the perspective of a former CC-only guy (who now OCs sometimes), I associated OC with the people on youtube who purposely get officers to notice them, because they like attention, like this guy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBWghJrVeYA&feature=youtu.be

I think that once I looked more into open carry, and realized that most open carriers just want to exercise their rights, without getting attention, I became a supporter and an OCer (sometimes).

CCers are afraid (as I used to be) that OCers are going to garner too much negative attention, and get OC and CC banned, and damage the 2A cause.

I think, as with all things, educating CCers about the use of rights, and to not accept the pressure from the anti-2A crowd to cave by concealing, then OC will be much more accepted. However, on the other hand (and rushcreek, this is not directed at you or anyone else in the forum, because your frustration with CCers is, in my opinion, merited to some extent), insulting CCers and being "in their face" is not going to help.

I was converted to seeing the benefits of OC by reasonable and friendly OC discussions with OCers. Now, I am an advocate of OC as well as CC. As the old cliche goes, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

YouTube was where I got my first impression of OC and I used to call them "open carry idiots".
Now I have a different perspective and find myself OCing more and more. I've not had a police encounter yet, and I'm certainly not looking for an opportunity. I find that most people don't even notice if I just act normal.

MKEgal · Mar 23, 2012

Truckdriver1975 said:
I find that most people don't even notice...

Exactly!
I have videos (private links on YT) of me OC while running errands around the Milwaukee (MKE) area, and most people don't notice. The ones who do also figure out that I'm acting just like everyone else (standing in line at the bank, pushing a grocery cart, whatever) & ignore me.

I've had 2 times of talking with people (for more than just a brief comment, & at close range) where after a bit of conversation they said something like "is open carry legal in WI?" or "I'd be afraid if I saw someone carrying a gun".
In both cases I pointed out that I was at that very moment OC.
They were both surprised.
One should have known better, 'cause we were at a gun-related event.

Actually, I had another experience, with a friend who should have known better 'cause we met here on OCDO & we'd just spent the morning shooting together. We went to get lunch & some people saw me OC & asked him if it was legal. He hadn't noticed 'til they pointed it out!

rushcreek2 · Mar 23, 2012

My comment was that the CC only bunch is beginning TO ANNOY ME more than the Brady Bunch - because the Brady Bunch is what it is - an association of people organized in OPPOSITION to the right to keep & bear arms.

I was CC - before I became CC/OC in 2006 when I moved from Texas to Colorado and learned more about OC initially primarily through this forum, and then my own very positive experience putting OC into practice.

Absolutely - I believe we should ALL be working together towards the COMMON GOAL of restoring respect for the constitutionally protected right . I'm ready to start anytime.

" ALLLLL ABOOOAARD !!!

The answer that most CC'ers give in opposition to OC

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