sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
Personally I would have done the same how is 3mm of cloth going to make someone who knows I am already carrying feel safer?
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approached in spokane mcdonalds playland-right action for the circumstances?
- Thread starter p85-GSXwheelman
- Start date
Personally I would have done the same how is 3mm of cloth going to make someone who knows I am already carrying feel safer?
I think it IS important to carry on the impression that OC-ers are polite and reasonable. So one would attempt to be both while still retaining their rights. I think one approach would be to compliment the gentleman on his attitude, and talk about how a firearm is a tool, and defensive in nature and that (in this case) you are not a felon nor convicted of any DV.
You can not change attitudes by either covering up and saying nothing, or by being rude or dismissive. Just seeing that the encounter was friendly would have a positive impact on the 'ladies'. (In fact, I might ask 'which ladies' to ascertain if this gentleman was deflecting by using them as an excuse to confront you).
FWIW.
You can not change attitudes by either covering up and saying nothing, or by being rude or dismissive. Just seeing that the encounter was friendly would have a positive impact on the 'ladies'. (In fact, I might ask 'which ladies' to ascertain if this gentleman was deflecting by using them as an excuse to confront you).
FWIW.
massivedesign
Regular Member
I think you did fine. One of the mottos we throw out there all the time is "An Armed Society is a Polite Society". Yet we sometimes encourage confrontations to "educate others". What you did was appropriate for the time and place.
SovereignAxe
Regular Member
I'm, as one said earlier, a pragmatist myself and would politely cover up if my wardrobe allowed it. Sometimes I wear shirts that are too form fitting and would look ridiculous shrink wrapped around a bulky OCed P99 in a Serpa-not to mention half of the holster/muzzle sticking out the bottom. Maybe it's just my southern upbringing, but out of politeness I would accept a stranger's request if it's practical and reasonable. However, before doing so I think I'd be asking him "sure, but now that they know it's there, they're still going to know it's there if I cover up. so isn't it a little too late?" and wait for his response.
DocWalker
Regular Member
I was stationed at Fairchild for 6 years and my wife is from Spokane so we visit a lot. Being from Western Washington cracks me up since you have to do what the East side tells you to do. Does the new Sea Hawk stadium ring a bell?
The question would be what would the answer have been if he didn't have his CPL?
I'm not going to say what he did was right or wrong, everyone would have handled it in their own way.
Do I feel like he gave in....yes
Was he wrong....no
What will happen when the polite guy tells another OC'er to hide his lawful activity but he refuses?
My whole point is I could go up to someone wearing a religous symbol and ask them to hide it and what are the chances they would...just because I or someone felt uncomfortable?
Both activities are covered as rights, we only let people stop us from practicing one of them today.....guess what one?
SpyderTattoo
Regular Member
Another good example of why I don't usually carry my CPL with me while I'm openly carrying.
"Sorry sir, if I cover up my gun I'll be committing a crime."
This would be a great way to educate someone about open carry. Can you just see the conversation that could possibly come up in this situation?
"Well, how is it that you'd be committing a crime by covering your gun?"
"You see sir, I don't have my CPL with me, and since the law says that to conceal my gun I have to have my CPL on my person, I can't legally cover it up. In WA, no license is required to open carry..."
You see where this is going. This also works well if a police officer asks to see your CPL. Of course, most of us would just simply refuse, but there is nothing like the look on an officer's face when you tell him "Sorry officer, I don't have my CPL on me. ".
"Sorry sir, if I cover up my gun I'll be committing a crime."
This would be a great way to educate someone about open carry. Can you just see the conversation that could possibly come up in this situation?
"Well, how is it that you'd be committing a crime by covering your gun?"
"You see sir, I don't have my CPL with me, and since the law says that to conceal my gun I have to have my CPL on my person, I can't legally cover it up. In WA, no license is required to open carry..."
You see where this is going. This also works well if a police officer asks to see your CPL. Of course, most of us would just simply refuse, but there is nothing like the look on an officer's face when you tell him "Sorry officer, I don't have my CPL on me. ".
WOD
Regular Member
You did what a respectable gun owner has the choice to do...
I'm new to the whole Concealed Carry world, and until today I didn't know WA state was an Open Carry state. Now, in the restaurant portion I wouldn't have CC'd, but in the play land section I think you did the right thing for two reasons. Firstly, as mentioned above, it shows we aren't a bunch of unreasonable nut-jobs. Secondly, It avoided a confrontation with people who have a different view on firearms. People have been so conditioned by the news on television that "guns are bad" somehow, that they become fearful of actually seeing one, not on a police officer. I wish more people would Open Carry, to desensitize the general public.
I'm new to the whole Concealed Carry world, and until today I didn't know WA state was an Open Carry state. Now, in the restaurant portion I wouldn't have CC'd, but in the play land section I think you did the right thing for two reasons. Firstly, as mentioned above, it shows we aren't a bunch of unreasonable nut-jobs. Secondly, It avoided a confrontation with people who have a different view on firearms. People have been so conditioned by the news on television that "guns are bad" somehow, that they become fearful of actually seeing one, not on a police officer. I wish more people would Open Carry, to desensitize the general public.
BigDave
Opt-Out Members
p85-GSXwheelman +1000 on your actions here by taking into account surrounding circumstances.
G30Mike
Regular Member
"Would those ladies like a pillow to sit on?"
My goal in life isn't to make anyone else comfortable while exercising my rights.
As mentioned before, I'm not going to request that someone cover their cross on their neck because it offends me that they wear a symbol of what Jesus died on.
I'm not going to ask someone walking their pitbull on a leash to cover their dog with a blanket as they walk it because I'm afraid of dogs.
I'm not going to ask the large shirtless man pumping his gas to throw on a sweatshirt because he's a large man and he makes me uncomfortable.
People are such panty wastes these days.....
OP, I'm not saying what you did was wrong by any means, what you do is up to you.
My goal in life isn't to make anyone else comfortable while exercising my rights.
As mentioned before, I'm not going to request that someone cover their cross on their neck because it offends me that they wear a symbol of what Jesus died on.
I'm not going to ask someone walking their pitbull on a leash to cover their dog with a blanket as they walk it because I'm afraid of dogs.
I'm not going to ask the large shirtless man pumping his gas to throw on a sweatshirt because he's a large man and he makes me uncomfortable.
People are such panty wastes these days.....
OP, I'm not saying what you did was wrong by any means, what you do is up to you.
amzbrady
Regular Member
Not the choice I would have made either... That being said you did what you felt was right, which conforms to "an armed society is a polite society". Hopefully the guy left with a feeling that armed people in this society with openly carried firearms are approachable, and can be polite. We all have a clever quip we can give you that you could have told the guy, but what it boils down to for me as an open carrier, is that you didnt do anything that makes the rest of us look bad. WTG.
I don't understand the bipolarity of the group. It seems that we perpetually swallow a camel but gag on a knat. On the one hand a manager of a big box retailer walks up to you and asks you to leave (within his rights even if corporate policy is counter) and we start with the usual battery of counter actions and we grab the torches and pitchforks: "Is it your corporates policy" "Do you have a copy of said policy" "What's your district manager's number" "You know that open carry is legal in Washington, right" Like a stalker in a long dead relationship we hound and try to convince the store that our relationship is amicable and beg them to take our money. Then we commence with the letter writing campaigns all culminating with someone saying "Lets all meet up there!!!! How's Saturday for everyone?"
This begs a couple of questions and statements:
1) If we are to normalize Open Carry why are we covering up? Does it not lend credence to the opposition's positions and by default we become a complicit participant?
2) Why aren't we countering illogical requests with logical replies?
3) A right was voluntarily surrendered to appear civil (IMHO) when that same tone of civility could have been used to counter-punch if you will.
4) Meeting at Starbucks has become old hat and not very brave, we need to make our stand in NEW territory. But it begins with ONE encounter at a time.
5) I will temper my statement by saying you did what you thought was best and I wasn't there. Maybe I would have handled it the same way maybe not. To be fair I have never been asked to "cover up" and I would like to think that I would stand firm. I am glad that at a minimum you are on the 2A side.
This begs a couple of questions and statements:
1) If we are to normalize Open Carry why are we covering up? Does it not lend credence to the opposition's positions and by default we become a complicit participant?
2) Why aren't we countering illogical requests with logical replies?
3) A right was voluntarily surrendered to appear civil (IMHO) when that same tone of civility could have been used to counter-punch if you will.
4) Meeting at Starbucks has become old hat and not very brave, we need to make our stand in NEW territory. But it begins with ONE encounter at a time.
5) I will temper my statement by saying you did what you thought was best and I wasn't there. Maybe I would have handled it the same way maybe not. To be fair I have never been asked to "cover up" and I would like to think that I would stand firm. I am glad that at a minimum you are on the 2A side.
look, just because one has the right to do X does not make one a sellout if one CHOOSES not to exercise that right in some circ's based on a polite request
if i am in mcdonald's and i was wearing a t-shirt that says "obama sucks ass! " and i was in the play area, and somebody politely said something about it, and i covered it up - am i ABANDONING THE FIRST AMENDMENT?
no.
i would support the OP *if* he had refused to cede to the person's request OR in this case, that he did cover up
it's a CHOICE, and strategically speaking (showing an ability of an OC'er to make a discretionary decision) it may benefit OUR CAUSE more in the long run when the guy who asked him POLITELY if he could cover it up tells his friends "hey, i ran into this OC'er in mcd's and he was actually a really nice guy and maybe my fear of OC is overblown" and etc.
i 100% support the right of open carry but it doesn't mean i don't respect "time/place" considerations.
Sharpender
Regular Member
OP, yes, you did the right thing. In that place, at that time, it was the correct move. The only reason I carry is to protect myself and my family, it's not political and I'm not a public educator. If I can put someone at ease by pulling my shirt over my weapon, and there's no perceived threat nearby (no spidey sense going off), I don't have a problem switching to concealed. When I OC I always have my CPL with me, why, because it's the responsible thing to do. The MCDs people left with a better impression of those of us who carry than they would have if you would have said, "fu<k off, it's my right!!"
SpyderTattoo
Regular Member
I've had some of these same thoughts for a long time. You said it eloquently, sir.
And, G30, I agree with you also. Well said.
Again, if you don't carry your CPL with you, all this can be avoided, and a possible OC education can be handed out. Also agreed, it's not brave to oc at Starbucks, with or without a crowd of people open carrying. It's normal there and everyone knows it.
The real chances for public education come when you're on your own ( without other oc'ers ) and a problem arises. How are you going to handle that? The real courage comes when you're alone and are approached by a store manager, or police officers. If it's private property, be respectful and back off. Their rights trump yours on their property. In public, never back down, not even to police. If you're right, you're right. The cops know it's legal.
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sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
Your argument leaves out some important things and makes the assumption there are only two choices, comply or be considered rude or dismissive. There are other choices like explaining why you can't, I don't carry my CPL this leaves an educational opportunity. What if I simply didn't want to conceal? Who then is the rude people it would be those demanding I cover. The OP did what he thought was best I woudn't have done the same. In my experience it's the ones making the demand that you don't follow that end up looking the fools.
Bolded for truth it's each to his own, that is what liberty is about.
Venator
Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Confrontation has a negative connotation. I suggest we have polite social intercourse in a friendly educational manner.
sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
I agree and well put. When I hear the word confrontational it bothers me, because it is such a subjective word, that lacks any real basis except for personal opinion. Some people would say a gay couple holding hands is "confrontational", or a young person with tattoos and piercings, or a hippy with a sign on the corner protesting war, or someone who uses his right of free speech to advocate for a freer more constitutional society.
I guess Rosa Parks was just being "confrontational" when she decided to sit where she as a human had the right to sit on that bus.
On a personal note, if we wait for the "right time" and the "right place" it will never happen.
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look, just because one has the right to do X does not make one a sellout if one CHOOSES not to exercise that right in some circ's based on a polite request
Please go back and re-read my post and pay special emphasis to 5)
if i am in mcdonald's and i was wearing a t-shirt that says "obama sucks ass! " and i was in the play area, and somebody politely said something about it, and i covered it up - am i ABANDONING THE FIRST AMENDMENT?
You are obviously confusing decency standards with the 2A and falsely insinuating that the 2A and it's proponents are some how lewd even when operating with in the parameters of the law and on the same level with a t-shirt spewing obscenities .
it's a CHOICE, and strategically speaking (showing an ability of an OC'er to make a discretionary decision) it may benefit OUR CAUSE more in the long run when the guy who asked him POLITELY if he could cover it up tells his friends "hey, i ran into this OC'er in mcd's and he was actually a really nice guy and maybe my fear of OC is overblown" and etc.
Polite being the operative word. There is another option: You can politely refuse without being confrontational . (Please see Vitaeous post "Sometimes I wonder about folks")This notion that one must comply in order to NOT be confrontational is absurd at best and at worst cowardly. With the same decorum and demeanor one can politely refuse to surround ones rights. Secondly, you are assuming that by covering up that somehow you will curry favor with a hostile crowd and even get them to flip. Non-sense. A golden opportunity was missed for an educational mini-seminar and they continue to remain entrenched in their anti-position. They walk away and probably tell friends "There was this idiot that was illegally carrying a gun in McDonald's and I had to tell him to cover it up. He knew he was wrong and he did as I told him to do" as he puffs his chest in front of his other anti friends and they ironically all nod in concert holding cups of Starbucks.
Please go back and re-read my post and pay special emphasis to 5)
if i am in mcdonald's and i was wearing a t-shirt that says "obama sucks ass! " and i was in the play area, and somebody politely said something about it, and i covered it up - am i ABANDONING THE FIRST AMENDMENT?
You are obviously confusing decency standards with the 2A and falsely insinuating that the 2A and it's proponents are some how lewd even when operating with in the parameters of the law and on the same level with a t-shirt spewing obscenities .
it's a CHOICE, and strategically speaking (showing an ability of an OC'er to make a discretionary decision) it may benefit OUR CAUSE more in the long run when the guy who asked him POLITELY if he could cover it up tells his friends "hey, i ran into this OC'er in mcd's and he was actually a really nice guy and maybe my fear of OC is overblown" and etc.
Polite being the operative word. There is another option: You can politely refuse without being confrontational . (Please see Vitaeous post "Sometimes I wonder about folks")This notion that one must comply in order to NOT be confrontational is absurd at best and at worst cowardly. With the same decorum and demeanor one can politely refuse to surround ones rights. Secondly, you are assuming that by covering up that somehow you will curry favor with a hostile crowd and even get them to flip. Non-sense. A golden opportunity was missed for an educational mini-seminar and they continue to remain entrenched in their anti-position. They walk away and probably tell friends "There was this idiot that was illegally carrying a gun in McDonald's and I had to tell him to cover it up. He knew he was wrong and he did as I told him to do" as he puffs his chest in front of his other anti friends and they ironically all nod in concert holding cups of Starbucks.
sirpuma
Regular Member
No, he didn't give up his rights. He exercised a choice in rights. With the CPL he can either chose to open carry or conceal carry. Nothing was given up. And sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. I OC when I can but there are times when it's just more prudent to CC just to keep from making an unneeded scene.
Vitaeus
Regular Member
I also bring my kids to McDonald's over in Kitsap county and so far I have had no issues with either the management or the other parents. If a "concerned" citizen asked me to cover up I would likely decline. "you are asking me to commit a crime" is a great discussion starter, in my opinion.