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Thread: ConFession of a Former Fingerprint Fence-Sitter

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    ConFession of a Former Fingerprint Fence-Sitter

    Place holder for longer first post.

    TFred

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    The only reason that I am posting this is that there may be some small chance that there are others who are going through the same thought process that I did.

    As most of us know, the CHP law grants localities the authority to require by statute that fingerprints must be submitted with one's first CHP application. It has been published that only about 30% of the localities in Virginia have enacted this requirement. It has been an ongoing effort by the RKBA movement to encourage localities to not require fingerprints, as well as to remove the option at the state level.

    With the passage of HB 754 and SB 67 in their respective houses, it appears that the repeal of the fingerprint requirement will be headed to the Governor's desk for signature. I don't know if he has indicated whether or not he intends to sign these bills into law.

    Here's the confession: I've always been on the fence about this. You may gasp if you wish.

    There is a very good reason for this, namely, that I did not fully understand the role of the fingerprints in the CHP application process.

    In my hometown of Fredericksburg, a serial burglar was recently arrested for a series of crimes dating back to September 2011. The City Manager's report indicated that by running the suspect's prints through the Automated Fingerprint Identification System (AFIS), they were able to connect him to another series of burglaries dating back to Thanksgiving 2010. This identification was made using fingerprints from those earlier crime scenes that had been entered into the "unknown data base of latent impressions" portion of AFIS.

    With this recent event in the news, I took the opportunity to correspond with a detective in the local Fredericksburg Police Department on the role that fingerprints play in the CHP process.

    What I Used to Think

    The concern I had was this: What if Mr. Smart Criminal had committed several or many crimes during which he left latent prints, but had thus far, managed to keep himself from getting caught, and also kept his fingerprints out of "the system", for other purposes such as a security clearance, or in some locations, applying for a CHP. Perhaps Mr. Criminal does not even realize that his latent prints are sitting in AFIS waiting for some day to find a match.

    Then Mr. Criminal decides he wants to get a CHP, because after all, he has no record, there should be no reason to deny him one.

    My thoughts were that if Mr. Criminal submitted his CHP application with his prints, then boom, AFIS would flag them and Mr. Police Officer would be paying Mr. Criminal a visit to talk things over...

    What I Know Now

    After my correspondence with the local Detective, I discovered that my thoughts on the role of prints in the CHP process were wrong. I was assured that the "ten prints" used for a CHP application are compared only to the database of known criminals, those who have prior records, and not against the "unknown data base of latent impressions."

    I suppose we can debate the wisdom in this, and perhaps the Fourth Amendment implications and statute authority to use or not use that data base, but what I have obviously concluded is this: In this day and age of computer records and the fact that nearly everyone is already "on the grid", the need for fingerprints solely to establish one's identity and prior criminal record is practically none.

    At that point, the requirement to submit fingerprints becomes merely an obstacle to RKBA, with no value added, and thus, should be discontinued.

    The one valid reason I could think of for submitting prints with a CHP application turns out to not be in play at all.

    Hopefully the Governor will sign the bills and this issue disappears for good on July 1, 2012.

    Thanks for reading.

    TFred

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The idea that CHP included fingerprints are necessary to catch BGs or those that should be disqualified just isn't true.
    It is a waste of time and money.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Wait, you mean you actually trusted the government to make use out of the data it collects in actually stopping crime (as opposed to collecting taxes)?



    Shame on you!


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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    As most of us know, the CHP law grants localities the authority to require by statute that fingerprints must be submitted with one's first CHP application.
    Actually, its by ordinance....but I know, I'm just splitting hairs.
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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    I very much oppose finger printing requirements. It is not only gun registration (that this person likely owns guns) but is registration of people, a record of their "serial number". The purpose of the 2A is NOT personal protection but protection from tyrannical government. If the #*&@ ever does hit the fan and you should be one of those patriots resisting said government and should for some reason leave a fingerprint somewhere they will know who you are. And that will be that for you and most likely a lot of your friends.

    The identity of law abiding citizens and the fact they may or may not own guns should NEVER be the business of any right government.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    How many kids have been fingerprinted in elementary school as part of an counter-kidnapping program? I remember it was very popular when I was a kid here. Only much, much later did I realize what was really going on there. IIRC, parental consent was required for the "program" and everybody gave it, of course.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    How many kids have been fingerprinted in elementary school as part of an counter-kidnapping program? I remember it was very popular when I was a kid here. Only much, much later did I realize what was really going on there. IIRC, parental consent was required for the "program" and everybody gave it, of course.
    The last time I ever paid attention to any details, they were taking the prints on a card, and giving the card to the parents. No adding to "the system" of any kind. That would seem fine to me, parents could file away in a safe place, hopefully never to be needed, but there in case.

    TFred

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    You know, I can't remember for a certainty now if that was how it was or not. I might just be fear-mongering, sorry...
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    The only reason that I am posting this is that there may be some small chance that there are others who are going through the same thought process that I did.

    . . .

    After my correspondence with the local Detective, I discovered that my thoughts on the role of prints in the CHP process were wrong. I was assured that the "ten prints" used for a CHP application are compared only to the database of known criminals, those who have prior records, and not against the "unknown data base of latent impressions."

    . . .

    TFred
    Um, no, once the prints are in the system, they stay for 99 years and US, state, local, and probabaly international police have access to them for investigations. Usually, one hopes, the prints help catch bad guys.

    Sometimes, the authorities abuse their power and wrongfully accuse the innocent of being a criminal or terrorist. See http://forejustice.org/wc/mayfield/j...jd_issue25.htm

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Um, no, once the prints are in the system, they stay for 99 years and US, state, local, and probabaly international police have access to them for investigations. Usually, one hopes, the prints help catch bad guys.

    Sometimes, the authorities abuse their power and wrongfully accuse the innocent of being a criminal or terrorist. See http://forejustice.org/wc/mayfield/j...jd_issue25.htm
    Are you stating that if I leave prints at the scene of a burglary, then some time later apply for a CHP (assuming that they leave the requirement in place) that I will be caught?

    That would directly contradict what the detective told me, and I would appreciate any source reference to that assertion that you might be able to dig up.

    TFred

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    No chance of escape

    Between the 30 years of military security clearences and civillian jobs in Law Enforcement and private security, I have ZERO chance of my prints NOT being on multiple systems.

    If I were ever to become a criminal, I would have to always wear gloves.

    Hell, I know I even have a DNC sample in the system.

    Guess I better not become a criminal.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    How many kids have been fingerprinted in elementary school as part of an counter-kidnapping program? I remember it was very popular when I was a kid here. Only much, much later did I realize what was really going on there. IIRC, parental consent was required for the "program" and everybody gave it, of course.
    The finger-print programs in my area the prints were given to the parents to keep and were never entered into a data base.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Hmmm. One part of me says prints should be checked against all databases. The other part of me says a CHP application shouldn't be a crimefighting tool. I'm surprised they don't take prints when we vote. Wait, that's a civil rights issue. My bad.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Hmmm. One part of me says prints should be checked against all databases. The other part of me says a CHP application shouldn't be a crimefighting tool. I'm surprised they don't take prints when we vote. Wait, that's a civil rights issue. My bad.
    I suspect that the Fourth Amendment kicks in here somewhere. If they take prints which are voluntarily given for one specific purpose and use them for a completely different purpose without my permission, that would seem to violate the prohibition against reasonable searches.

    One section of code that I think we tend to overlook is 15.2-915.3, which spells out a little more clearly the defined purpose for which a locality may require the fingerprinting for CHPs:

    § 15.2-915.3. Requiring fingerprinting for concealed handgun permit.

    Notwithstanding § 15.2-915, a county or city may by ordinance require any applicant for a concealed handgun permit to submit to fingerprinting for the purpose of obtaining the applicant's state or national criminal history record; however, such ordinance shall not require fingerprinting for the renewal of an existing permit pursuant to subsection I of § 18.2-308.


    That tells me that they are only authorized to use the prints to search for a past record, not for unsolved crimes.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 02-14-2012 at 10:54 AM. Reason: Typo

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I suspect that the Fourth Amendment kicks in here somewhere. If they take prints which are voluntarily given for one specific purpose and use them for a completely different purpose without my permission, that would seem to violate the prohibition against reasonable searches.

    One section of code that I think we tend to overlook is 15.2-915.3, which spells out a little more clearly the defined purpose for which a locality may require the fingerprinting for CHPs:

    § 15.2-915.3. Requiring fingerprinting for concealed handgun permit.

    Notwithstanding § 15.2-915, a county or city may by ordinance require any applicant for a concealed handgun permit to submit to fingerprinting for the purpose of obtaining the applicant's state or national criminal history record; however, such ordinance shall not require fingerprinting for the renewal of an existing permit pursuant to subsection I of § 18.2-308.


    That tells me that they are only authorized to use the prints to search for a past record, not for unsolved crimes.

    TFred

    Why would they need your fingerprints for that? In case you had your name changed or something? Seems your name and SSN or DL should be enough to ID you.

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    Regular Member Old Virginia Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post

    That would directly contradict what the detective told me . . . .

    TFred
    And, we ALL know that govt employees such as a detective are never known to blow hot air out the rectum area, OR be flat out wrong about something. C'mon, remember our founders told us to never fully trust our govt, right? Especially here on OCDO.
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    Regular Member ThunderRanch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by va_tazdad View Post
    Between the 30 years of military security clearences and civillian jobs in Law Enforcement and private security, I have ZERO chance of my prints NOT being on multiple systems.

    If I were ever to become a criminal, I would have to always wear gloves.

    Hell, I know I even have a DNC sample in the system.

    Guess I better not become a criminal.
    +1,000,000!! Being Ex-Military AND having just completed the DCJS requirements for Electronic Security, my prints are definitely "in the system". That being said, I don't see the need to fill out some form and have them taken again to be able to exercise a right!!
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms..disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." - Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria, Criminologist in 1764.

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by va_tazdad View Post
    Between the 30 years of military security clearences and civillian jobs in Law Enforcement and private security, I have ZERO chance of my prints NOT being on multiple systems.

    If I were ever to become a criminal, I would have to always wear gloves.

    Hell, I know I even have a DNC sample in the system.

    Guess I better not become a criminal.
    Similar situation with me...military clearances, fingerprinting, worked for the VAMC for a while (same gamut there), also worked in and retired from public school system where we scanned our index fingers each morning when clocking in, as well as when clocking out.

    I think I'll continue on the path of righteous living and stay off the paths of lawlessness and crime.
    Proud Veteran ~ U.S. Army / Army Reserve

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    Regular Member mk4's Avatar
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    Notwithstanding this is an open carry forum, so forgive the reference to the cc statute...

    And, acknowledging OVJ comment about 'agencies' actually doing what they want with fingerprints collected for chp background checks...

    18.2-308(D) states:
    "...As a condition for issuance of a concealed handgun permit, the applicant shall submit to fingerprinting if required by local ordinance in the county or city where the applicant resides and provide personal descriptive information to be forwarded with the fingerprints through the Central Criminal Records Exchange to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the purpose of obtaining criminal history record information regarding the applicant, and obtaining fingerprint identification information from federal records pursuant to criminal investigations by state and local law-enforcement agencies. However, no local ordinance shall require an applicant to submit to fingerprinting if the applicant has an existing concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this section and is applying for a new five-year permit pursuant to subsection I. Where feasible and practical, the local law-enforcement agency may transfer information electronically to the State Police instead of inked fingerprint cards. Upon completion of the criminal history records check, the State Police shall return the fingerprint cards to the submitting local agency or, in the case of scanned fingerprints, destroy the electronic record. The local agency shall then promptly notify the person that he has 21 days from the date of the notice to request return of the fingerprint cards, if any. All fingerprint cards not claimed by the applicant within 21 days of notification by the local agency shall be destroyed. All optically scanned fingerprints shall be destroyed upon completion of the criminal history records check without requiring that the applicant be notified. Fingerprints taken for the purposes described in this section shall not be copied, held or used for any other purposes...."

    FWIW.
    “For life, liberty and Little Lizzie.” - John Connor (2005)

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neplusultra View Post
    Why would they need your fingerprints for that? In case you had your name changed or something? Seems your name and SSN or DL should be enough to ID you.
    Yes the biggest concern that I've heard expressed in favor of keeping a fingerprint requirement is for when applicants use fake names in an attempt to hide their criminal past. This begs the next logical question: What happens if a background check (without fingerprints) returns absolutely nothing. No records, no past, no history, completely off the grid. That would tell me it's a fake name in today's computerized world. Even Peter Nap has to have a record or two floating around somewhere out there. I would think that an overall high correlation of collected data would be a good indicator that the information provided is accurate and the applicant is who they say they are. If someone is absolutely "not out there", I think I'd want to find out why before giving them any government licenses at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Old Virginia Joe View Post
    And, we ALL know that govt employees such as a detective are never known to blow hot air out the rectum area, OR be flat out wrong about something. C'mon, remember our founders told us to never fully trust our govt, right? Especially here on OCDO.
    Except... the point the detective was making was in support of the declining need for fingerprints, not that we should still require them. He said that the prints are only used to confirm criminal records, which are easily discovered through other means now. If he were trying to "blow hot air out the rectum area," then his information would have instead supported a need for fingerprints that could not be satisfied by other means.

    TFred

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mk4 View Post
    Notwithstanding this is an open carry forum, so forgive the reference to the cc statute...

    And, acknowledging OVJ comment about 'agencies' actually doing what they want with fingerprints collected for chp background checks...

    18.2-308(D) states:
    "...As a condition for issuance of a concealed handgun permit, the applicant shall submit to fingerprinting if required by local ordinance in the county or city where the applicant resides and provide personal descriptive information to be forwarded with the fingerprints through the Central Criminal Records Exchange to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the purpose of obtaining criminal history record information regarding the applicant, and obtaining fingerprint identification information from federal records pursuant to criminal investigations by state and local law-enforcement agencies. However, no local ordinance shall require an applicant to submit to fingerprinting if the applicant has an existing concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this section and is applying for a new five-year permit pursuant to subsection I. Where feasible and practical, the local law-enforcement agency may transfer information electronically to the State Police instead of inked fingerprint cards. Upon completion of the criminal history records check, the State Police shall return the fingerprint cards to the submitting local agency or, in the case of scanned fingerprints, destroy the electronic record. The local agency shall then promptly notify the person that he has 21 days from the date of the notice to request return of the fingerprint cards, if any. All fingerprint cards not claimed by the applicant within 21 days of notification by the local agency shall be destroyed. All optically scanned fingerprints shall be destroyed upon completion of the criminal history records check without requiring that the applicant be notified. Fingerprints taken for the purposes described in this section shall not be copied, held or used for any other purposes...."

    FWIW.
    The problem is that Virginia State Law can't really force the FBI to comply with any destruction requirements.

    TFred

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    Regular Member mk4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    The problem is that Virginia State Law can't really force the FBI to comply with any destruction requirements.

    TFred
    Exactly why I ack'ed OVJ's comment. ;-)

    I was just citing the statute, should *any* agencies be inclined to play by the rules.
    Last edited by mk4; 02-14-2012 at 05:04 PM.
    “For life, liberty and Little Lizzie.” - John Connor (2005)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Are you stating that if I leave prints at the scene of a burglary, then some time later apply for a CHP (assuming that they leave the requirement in place) that I will be caught?

    That would directly contradict what the detective told me, and I would appreciate any source reference to that assertion that you might be able to dig up.

    TFred
    Once a person's prints are in the FBI system, they will show a match if an agency requests that the prints be run.

    So in your hypothetical, if the police tried a second time to run the burglery scene prints, after the CHP applicant-burgler submited his prints to the FBI, then if all goes well with the fingerprint matchng software, then he would be identified and the evidence might lead to a subsequent investigation, prosecution, and conviction.

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    A lot hangs on human verification of fingerprints. That can and does go wrong sometimes - sometimes very wrong.

    http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...fingerprint07m
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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