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Thread: Companies new CCW policy - not sure they got this right.

  1. #1
    Regular Member tomm1963's Avatar
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    Companies new CCW policy - not sure they got this right.

    Weapons in Vehicles & Registration of Weapons Policy

    The Wisconsin state law permits concealed carry weapons – handgun, electric weapon or knife other than a switchblade – in a vehicle while in company parking lots. While signage will prohibit weapons of any sort in or around our buildings, we will comply with the storage of a weapon in a vehicle while in company parking lots. However, employees and guests (contractors, vendors, suppliers, etc.) on the Campus must comply with these Company standards:

    • Notify Security in person that you have or intend to periodically have a weapon in your vehicle, and provide a copy of a permit issued by the State of Wisconsin
    • The firearm must be stored in a secure location such as a locked glove compartment or trunk
    • All safety mechanisms must be installed and it is strongly preferred the firearm be unloaded while on company property
    • While on Company property, the firearm shall never be in plain view
    • If the weapon is a knife or other bladed weapon, the weapon will be sheathed and placed in a secure location of the vehicle where it cannot be seen in plain view

    Note: Long guns, rifles, bow and arrows, or any other weapons or explosives that are not specifically identified as being a concealed carry weapon, are prohibited anytime and anywhere on the Milwaukee Campus.


    Seems like this policy has some issues to address...
    Can a private company actually demand to see my CCW permit in order to park in their lots???
    Can they prohibit long guns in their lots? Say I go from work to trap shooting. Shotgun in trunk saves me a trip home between.
    They also are forcing "conceal" but what if a person does not have a CCW permit and open carry's in their vehicle on the way to work.

    I would like some input from the mass of knowledge lurking in this forum. Thanks

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomm1963 View Post
    Weapons in Vehicles & Registration of Weapons Policy

    The Wisconsin state law permits concealed carry weapons – handgun, electric weapon or knife other than a switchblade – in a vehicle while in company parking lots. While signage will prohibit weapons of any sort in or around our buildings, we will comply with the storage of a weapon in a vehicle while in company parking lots. However, employees and guests (contractors, vendors, suppliers, etc.) on the Campus must comply with these Company standards:

    • Notify Security in person that you have or intend to periodically have a weapon in your vehicle, and provide a copy of a permit issued by the State of Wisconsin
    • The firearm must be stored in a secure location such as a locked glove compartment or trunk
    • All safety mechanisms must be installed and it is strongly preferred the firearm be unloaded while on company property
    • While on Company property, the firearm shall never be in plain view
    • If the weapon is a knife or other bladed weapon, the weapon will be sheathed and placed in a secure location of the vehicle where it cannot be seen in plain view

    Note: Long guns, rifles, bow and arrows, or any other weapons or explosives that are not specifically identified as being a concealed carry weapon, are prohibited anytime and anywhere on the Milwaukee Campus.


    Seems like this policy has some issues to address...
    Can a private company actually demand to see my CCW permit in order to park in their lots???
    Can they prohibit long guns in their lots? Say I go from work to trap shooting. Shotgun in trunk saves me a trip home between.
    They also are forcing "conceal" but what if a person does not have a CCW permit and open carry's in their vehicle on the way to work.

    I would like some input from the mass of knowledge lurking in this forum. Thanks
    No
    Yes
    I don't know offhand.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  3. #3
    Regular Member tomm1963's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    No
    Yes
    I don't know offhand.
    Can you site where the law allows employers to ban long guns.
    As i read act 35
    (15m)(b) An employer may not prohibit a licensee or an
    out−of−state licensee, as a condition of employment,
    from carrying a concealed weapon, a particular type of
    concealed weapon, or ammunition or from storing a
    weapon, a particular type of weapon, or ammunition in
    the licensee’s or out−of−state licensee’s own motor
    vehicle, regardless of whether the motor vehicle is used
    in the course of employment or whether the motor
    vehicle is driven or parked on property used by the

    "particular type of weapon" isn't a long gun a particular type of weapon?

  4. #4
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Carefully differentiate between matters of law and conditions of employment. Wisconsin is not a right-to-work state. ETA: Which is to say that you will likely have to take legal action to enforce your wishes against the employers policy. It will be interesting to see a goonion's position on this, vis-a-vis their usual prog-liberal bent.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 02-14-2012 at 02:20 PM.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomm1963 View Post
    Can you site where the law allows employers to ban long guns.
    As i read act 35
    (15m)(b) An employer may not prohibit a licensee or an
    out−of−state licensee, as a condition of employment,
    from carrying a concealed weapon, a particular type of
    concealed weapon, or ammunition or from storing a
    weapon, a particular type of weapon, or ammunition in
    the licensee’s or out−of−state licensee’s own motor
    vehicle, regardless of whether the motor vehicle is used
    in the course of employment or whether the motor
    vehicle is driven or parked on property used by the

    "particular type of weapon" isn't a long gun a particular type of weapon?
    Long guns are not covered under a CCL.

    175.60 License to carry a concealed weapon. (1)
    DEFINITIONS. In this section
    (bm) “Handgun” means any weapon designed or
    redesigned, or made or remade, and intended to be fired
    while held in one hand and to use the energy of an explosive
    to expel a projectile through a smooth or rifled bore.
    “Handgun” does not include a machine gun, as defined
    in s. 941.27 (1), a short−barreled rifle, as defined in s.
    941.28 (1) (b), or a short−barreled shotgun, as defined in
    s. 941.28 (1) (c).
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  6. #6
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    I believe his question is of storing a particular type of weapon. "An employer may not prohibit a licensee ..., as a condition of employment, ... from storing a ... particular type of weapon, in ... the licensee’s ... own motor vehicle, regardless ... "

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    As I read things -

    Can a private company actually demand to see my CCW permit in order to park in their lots??? - Yes. The law says the priviledge is extended only to licensees, thus your employer has a right to verify that you are a valid licensee.

    Can they prohibit long guns in their lots? Say I go from work to trap shooting. Shotgun in trunk saves me a trip home between. - Hard to say with surity, but it reads as if the answer is "no". Their policy addresses both concealed weapons and weapons in general:
    ...that you have or intend to periodically have a weapon in your vehicle, and provide a copy of a permit issued by the State of Wisconsin.... [note - this fails to recognize valid out-of-state licenses, which may invalidate the entire policy. see a real attorney for a better understanding of that issue.]
    The firearm must be stored ....
    They also are forcing "conceal" but what if a person does not have a CCW permit and open carry's in their vehicle on the way to work. - The law only applies to licensees. Discussing the "common sense" aspect of not wanting to invite thievery/vandalism of their employees'/visitors' vehicles is beyond the point. They are not prohibited from refusing to allow those without a license from bringing firearms/weapons (as their policy addresses the matter) onto their property.

    Go get your license. Even if you never carry concealed it seems to offer you worthwhile advantages.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member tomm1963's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Long guns are not covered under a CCL.
    It seems when the legislature wanted to spell out that a certain aspect of the law only covered "hand guns" they spelled it out.

    167.31 (2) (b) Except as provided in sub. (4), no person
    may place, possess, or transport a firearm, bow, or
    crossbow in or on a vehicle, unless the firearm is a handgun,
    as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (bm), unless the firearm
    is unloaded and encased, or unless the bow or crossbow
    is unstrung or is enclosed in a carrying case.


    So when they say

    "An employer may not prohibit a licensee...from storing a
    weapon, a particular type of weapon, or ammunition in
    the licensee’s or out−of−state licensee’s own motor
    vehicle"

    I read it that a licensee may store any weapon in their personal vehicle.

    I agree with you Skidmark "Go get your license. Even if you never carry concealed it seems to offer you worthwhile advantages."

    I was just pointing out the catch 22 situation for open-carriers. I still question if they can actually demand to see a license.

  9. #9
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomm1963 View Post
    I still question if they can actually demand to see a license.
    Absolutely they may demand to see a license - on pain of dismissal. Your recourse would be civil legal action.

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    Regular Member Plankton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Absolutely they may demand to see a license - on pain of dismissal. Your recourse would be civil legal action.
    Cite?
    Liberty or death. We're sorry, there are no other options available at this time..........
    "Safety is the new Liberty, and recklessness is the new Freedom, and alcoholism is the new Doug Huffman."

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    A wonderful time to apply "don't ask, don't tell", especially the "don't tell" part.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomm1963
    I still question if they can actually demand to see a license.
    They can ask, you can deny having one to show them.
    You don't carry it on your person at work, right? (The license, that is.)
    If you do, this might be a good time to stop.
    And it looks like you'd have to stop off the property, out of sight, to go from being able to protect yourself in your own car to having it in the safe & relying on whatever your employer has set up to protect everyone.
    (Which, if they're like most places, is absolutely nothing.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkegal View Post
    a wonderful time to apply "don't ask, don't tell", especially the "don't tell" part.


    They can ask, you can deny having one to show them.
    You don't carry it on your person at work, right? (the license, that is.)
    if you do, this might be a good time to stop.
    And it looks like you'd have to stop off the property, out of sight, to go from being able to protect yourself in your own car to having it in the safe & relying on whatever your employer has set up to protect everyone.
    (which, if they're like most places, is absolutely nothing.)

    ftmw.

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    or park on the street , when my brother worked for Bobcat in North Dakota , bobcats corporate policy was no guns on company property , a public street ran thru the facility every one with a gun parked on the street.

    this and other instances like it are the reason they wrote our CCL law to provide for employees being able to park and secure their cars

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    My advice is to not give them any information and keep a long gun and ammo out of sight in the trunk. And don't talk about it to others at your company. They are really grasping at straws but it is way more hassle to try to change their minds then to just do it and shut up. Your liberty to have any firearm in your car is not dependent on your company's permission.

  15. #15
    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Absolutely they may demand to see a license - on pain of dismissal. Your recourse would be civil legal action.
    Have you found any cite for this Doug?
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Regular Member Plankton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    Have you found any cite for this Doug?
    Doug/Master Doug/Herr Heckler Doug/ has stated numerous times: "IANAL".
    Liberty or death. We're sorry, there are no other options available at this time..........
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    A Long Gun is not a Weapon

    At least for this purpose.

    175.60(j) “Weapon” means a handgun, an electric weapon,
    as defined in s. 941.295 (1c) (a), a knife other than a
    switchblade knife under s. 941.24, or a billy club.

    Since your ability to store a weapon in your vehicle stems from possession of a CWL, it seems reasonable for your employer to verify that you have one.

    The other requirements for storage may be permissible if they serve an important interest of the employer and don't substantially interfere with your ability to store your weapon under Act 35. For instance, notifying security once may be ok. Every time you drive on the lot, probably not. Storing in a safe manner = ok. Cleaning your pistol every time you arrive - no.

    Whether or not a weapon must be hidden from plain view is a more difficult question. But why would anyone want to leave a weapon in the open anyway?

    If you are not a licensee then you are subject to your employer's policy and good will.
    Last edited by apjonas; 02-22-2012 at 02:39 PM.

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    Lot of Factors but

    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Carefully differentiate between matters of law and conditions of employment. Wisconsin is not a right-to-work state. ETA: Which is to say that you will likely have to take legal action to enforce your wishes against the employers policy. It will be interesting to see a goonion's position on this, vis-a-vis their usual prog-liberal bent.
    RTW really isn't relevant. Since storing a weapon in the car is really at the fringes of work-relatedness, a union probably wouldn't be to eager to jump into the fray. They generally don't like (anybody but their people) to have guns anyway.

  19. #19
    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    At least for this purpose.

    175.60(j) “Weapon” means a handgun, an electric weapon,
    as defined in s. 941.295 (1c) (a), a knife other than a
    switchblade knife under s. 941.24, or a billy club.

    Since your ability to store a weapon in your vehicle stems from possession of a CWL, it seems reasonable for your employer to verify that you have one.

    The other requirements for storage may be permissible if they serve an important interest of the employer and don't substantially interfere with your ability to store your weapon under Act 35. For instance, notifying security once may be ok. Every time you drive on the lot, probably not. Storing in a safe manner = ok. Cleaning your pistol every time you arrive - no.

    Whether or not a weapon must be hidden from plain view is a more difficult question. But why would anyone want to leave a weapon in the open anyway?

    If you are not a licensee then you are subject to your employer's policy and good will.
    That which is reasonable isn't always legal. Also if I am going skeet shooting after work and have my shotgun in the trunk I have still complied with the transportation law and any concealed carry license has no bearing. My employer has no legal right to search my car, therefore anything in my car does not pertain to my employer. Act 35 provides additional permissions with concealed carry but doesn't eliminate the transportation laws from before the law was signed.
    Last edited by bigdaddy1; 02-28-2012 at 10:11 AM.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    IMHO, it is none of their business if I have a permit/or not; if I have a pistol in my car, or not..privacy issue, I don't give a da## what they want, or why they want it, it is none of their business for an employee to do anything that is legal, that does not imact his work, or their security.

    If they have a safety concern, and want you to wear steel toe boots, they can supply them. If you have a safety concern and you wish to wear steel toe boots in an office environment, it is none of their business. Boot's, your driver's license (unless you drive one of their cars) and guns are just somethings that are legal, that some companies want to regulate, but if you push back, they soon find they cannot.

    The state says you can have a gun in your car, it is absolutely none of their business if you actually do or not. They can only do it if you allow them to. Does not WI state that permits are private? Keep them private.

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    The Key is to Work for a Reasonable Employer

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    That which is reasonable isn't always legal.
    True but not relevant, I think, to this situation. I would say that the case is more often that which is legal isn't always reasonable. But I digress.[/QUOTE]

    Also if I am going skeet shooting after work and have my shotgun in the trunk I have still complied with the transportation law and any concealed carry license has no bearing.
    Correct. However, your employer may have workplace rules. One such rule may ban firearms on company property. Unless they are really bizarre or a pretext for some unlawful discrimination, such employer rules are likely valid and will be upheld. Act 35 merely gives you a shield against such rules for a particular type of weapon (e.g. no handguns) stored in a particular place (your vehicle).

    My employer has no legal right to search my car, therefore anything in my car does not pertain to my employer.
    The first part may be generally true but not absolutely so. The second part really doesn't follow from the first part but in any event is also not true 100% of the time. You would probably agree that your employer would have an interest in contraband in your vehicle (once again this is on his property). Do not forget that the 4th Amendment does not (again generally) apply to private actors.

    Act 35 provides additional permissions with concealed carry but doesn't eliminate the transportation laws from before the law was signed.
    Well, some of the transportation laws were affected but leaving that aside you seem to think that compliance with a state statute obviates the need to comply with workplace rules. Not so.
    Last edited by apjonas; 03-01-2012 at 11:12 PM.

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    Do You Work for Montgomery Burns?

    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    IMHO, it is none of their business if I have a permit/or not; if I have a pistol in my car, or not..privacy issue, I don't give a da## what they want, or why they want it, it is none of their business for an employee to do anything that is legal, that does not imact his work, or their security.
    It's none of their business unless you wish to use your license as a tool to negate a workplace rule. You are incorrect in saying that any conduct by an employee, if legal, must be accepted at the job site. Even if you restrict to things "that impact his work (or not)" - that is a determination that the employer makes, not the employee.

    If they have a safety concern, and want you to wear steel toe boots, they can supply them. If you have a safety concern and you wish to wear steel toe boots in an office environment, it is none of their business. Boot's, your driver's license (unless you drive one of their cars) and guns are just somethings that are legal, that some companies want to regulate, but if you push back, they soon find they cannot.
    I see. So if you work in a position where a coat and tie are expected, your employer has to provide them or you are free to wear Bermuda shorts? Provided you have an image concern, of course. Can you bring a some Jack Daniels to enjoy at your desk during your (unpaid) lunch period? I think you underestimate the authority of an employer to regulate the behavior of employees on the job.

    The state says you can have a gun in your car, it is absolutely none of their business if you actually do or not. They can only do it if you allow them to. Does not WI state that permits are private? Keep them private.
    Well it is the employer's business if you bring the gun onto his property. Act 35 only prevents the employer from not allowing you to store it in your vehicle while on the employer's property. Since this privilege stems from your possession of a license, why should the employer not be able to verify the fact? Anybody can claim to have a license and as you point out license information is available only to a small set of people under certain conditions. To be sure, if you keep a low profile, it may never become an issue. Probably.

  23. #23
    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    Correct. However, your employer may have workplace rules. One such rule may ban firearms on company property. Unless they are really bizarre or a pretext for some unlawful discrimination, such employer rules are likely valid and will be upheld. Act 35 merely gives you a shield against such rules for a particular type of weapon (e.g. no handguns) stored in a particular place (your vehicle).
    I had to do a lot of research for a company when this issue first came about, when CC was only a rumor. If your company suspects you have stolen property, or have other illegal substances in your car they DO NOT have the right to search you or your vehicle. They can look through the windows and they can ask your permission to look inside but can not move anything, such as a blanket, shirt etc to see if there is anything underneath nor can they go in any closed compartments. An employer can not detain you (unless they are registered private security, such as theft prevention personnel) or prevent you from taking your vehicle either. They can call the police, and if they have RAS they can search your car, otherwise a search warrant is required. I did not however check on if an employer has the legal right to see any documentation other than a drivers license (if operating a motor vehicle is required for your job) and Federal or State eligibility documents (such as social security card, or naturalization papers). Knowing that they can only ask for a drivers license if operating a motor vehicle is required for your job leads me to believe they don't have the legal right to ask for any other documentation.
    Last edited by bigdaddy1; 03-02-2012 at 08:18 AM.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Let's Focus

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1 View Post
    I had to do a lot of research for a company when this issue first came about, when CC was only a rumor. If your company suspects you have stolen property, or have other illegal substances in your car they DO NOT have the right to search you or your vehicle. They can look through the windows and they can ask your permission to look inside but can not move anything, such as a blanket, shirt etc to see if there is anything underneath nor can they go in any closed compartments. An employer can not detain you (unless they are registered private security, such as theft prevention personnel) or prevent you from taking your vehicle either. They can call the police, and if they have RAS they can search your car, otherwise a search warrant is required. I did not however check on if an employer has the legal right to see any documentation other than a drivers license (if operating a motor vehicle is required for your job) and Federal or State eligibility documents (such as social security card, or naturalization papers). Knowing that they can only ask for a drivers license if operating a motor vehicle is required for your job leads me to believe they don't have the legal right to ask for any other documentation.
    This is all interesting but you are talking around the issue. As I understand it, the question is whether or not an employer may require you to show him your WI CWL in order to have covered weapons in your car on company property. I think the answer is clearly yes. If an employer has a "no weapons" policy, that policy is enforceable except to the extent a law says otherwise. A non-licensee who introduces a weapon onto the company lot is in violation of that policy and may be disciplined accordingly. Act 35 provides an exception. The exception is based on your status as a licensee. I suppose there are other ways to prove your status but showing the piece of plastic is certainly the easiest. A shotgun is not a covered weapon. Therefore even a licensee may not bring in a shotgun without violating the policy. I'm sure that if you are careful the boss may never find out. That doesn't change whether or not you have transgressed the rules. The fact that a kid doesn't get zapped for illegal downloading does not mean that copyright infringement has not taken place. Getting away with a bad act does not equal making the act any less "bad."

  25. #25
    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    This is all interesting but you are talking around the issue. As I understand it, the question is whether or not an employer may require you to show him your WI CWL in order to have covered weapons in your car on company property. I think the answer is clearly yes. If an employer has a "no weapons" policy, that policy is enforceable except to the extent a law says otherwise. A non-licensee who introduces a weapon onto the company lot is in violation of that policy and may be disciplined accordingly. Act 35 provides an exception. The exception is based on your status as a licensee. I suppose there are other ways to prove your status but showing the piece of plastic is certainly the easiest. A shotgun is not a covered weapon. Therefore even a licensee may not bring in a shotgun without violating the policy. I'm sure that if you are careful the boss may never find out. That doesn't change whether or not you have transgressed the rules. The fact that a kid doesn't get zapped for illegal downloading does not mean that copyright infringement has not taken place. Getting away with a bad act does not equal making the act any less "bad."

    Employers can ONLY ask for 2 forms if identification for the purpose of determining employment eligibility. Privacy laws were not overridden by act 35. The only exception is if your job requires you to operate a motor vehicle they can ask to see your drivers license.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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