Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Are we making progress or not?

  1. #1
    Regular Member fjpro2a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    300

    Are we making progress or not?

    I have seen the OC movement take a few steps forward, but more steps going backward. More and more places are posting "no firearms" signs. A friend of mine from Arizona says almost all the restaurants he and his wife go to prohibit OC. Maybe I need a little spark from others that truly believe we are making progress. I honestly believe we are NOT making progress.

  2. #2
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    2,241
    Quote Originally Posted by fjpro2a View Post
    I have seen the OC movement take a few steps forward, but more steps going backward. More and more places are posting "no firearms" signs. A friend of mine from Arizona says almost all the restaurants he and his wife go to prohibit OC. Maybe I need a little spark from others that truly believe we are making progress. I honestly believe we are NOT making progress.
    More and more places are posting "no firearms" signs. A friend of mine from Arizona says almost all the restaurants he and his wife go to prohibit OC.
    Is this all you have to base it on? Pretty vague, and seems only representive of a crumb from the the pie, I would think.

  3. #3
    Regular Member fjpro2a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    300

    Whew!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    Is this all you have to base it on? Pretty vague, and seems only representive of a crumb from the the pie, I would think.
    Great response! We really moved the discussion forward. At this rate,........

  4. #4
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Elizabethton, TN
    Posts
    795
    I would say yes, but would note that there have been steps backward in certain places-California being an obvious example

    I've been following all of the OC stories threads in the various states, however, and it seems like the negative stories are getting fewer and farther between. Also, I created a thread in the TN forum since it was lacking one, and thought for sure I'd have a negative story in it by now (or at least one from the past), and two pages in it's been unusual to have someone mention even a positive encounter.

    So if anything, I would say that OC is at least getting recognized as legal, and negative police and civilian encounters have gone down. However, I have yet to actually see anyone else OC around here, so take that for what it's worth.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!" - Malcolm Reynolds

    EDC = Walther PPQ 9mm

  5. #5
    Regular Member .40S&W's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    earth
    Posts
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by fjpro2a View Post
    Great response! We really moved the discussion forward. At this rate,........
    Ignoring your obvious sarcasm it was a great repsonse. One state with some restaraunts posting signs is not very convincing that there is no progress being made. In a country with over 300 million people that is a small crumb of the pie.
    Never get complacent. Practice situational awareness. Stay alert stay alive.

  6. #6
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Louisa, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,694
    I hardly ever see a "no firearms" signs. My BANK doesn't even have one. I recently noticed that my favorite waffle house has a sign that prohibits weapons but they're well aware that I am carrying and have never said anything to me about it.

    Local cops don't stop me and look through their KRS (Ky revised statute) books to find something to arrest me on anymore.

    So I would say that we are moving forward.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Southeast, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    5,974
    I don't think that AZ is a good example, at least not in the context used by the OP. About 18 months ago, AZ implemented no-permit aka constitutional carry. While AZ had long been a "Gold Star" open carry state, I expect that the media surrounding the legal changes to the CC law also (unintentionally?) informed many of their OC rights as well, likely leading to an increase in both modes of carry. Yes, that is a supposition, however, it is at least as valid as the anecdotal lead of the OP.

    IF indeed there are more no-OC postings in AZ lately then something is leading to that change. Since the claim is specific to OC, it would most logically be concluded that an increase in anti-OC sentiment at businesses would be due to an increase in OCing customers. Assuming all that, it means that we are making progress because more people are invoking their right to OC, enough so that businesses are actually taking note of it and expressing their opinion on the matter.

    Assuming all the above to be at least somewhat true, I would argue that an increase in opposition is not indicative of losing ground. Most people wouldn't much notice if the subject were not raised to the level that it gained their attention through media or contact with the behavior. And sometimes there is a knee jerk reaction that leads to such signs but over time, as the matter becomes normalized without incident, the opposition quietly dries up and goes away. Example: About 8 years ago when MO was passing the CC law, one of the heavy hitting, i.e. wealthy and well-known, opponents was the Schnuck family. They own a sizable chain of grocery stores named, perhaps obviously, Schnuck's, mostly in MO, but also in TN and I believe some other states. So, not only did they help fund a lot of anti-CC media, they actively lobbied to prevent passage and then later, to prevent implementation. They bought into the "blood in the streets" anti-CC argument. For about 5-6 years they posted no firearms signs at their stores. But there was no blood in the streets. There was ... nothing, except a lot of citizens prepared and able to defend themselves shopping at Schnuck's quietly ignoring the signs. Then the signs quietly came down. I saw that with several other businesses in MO as well.

    The biggest threat to the antis is the lack of problems from carrying. When there is no problem, people stop worrying about it. It goes off the radar. That is where the normalizing of OC is of benefit. Where it is considered normal and there are no issues with it, people don't tend to get excited about it on any level. The normalization process though can be messy as people over-react to something new (to them).

    Less than a decade ago, CC was a major issue in MO. We have slowly improved the CC laws here and now we have 2 different OC preemption bills pending in the legislature. Even if neither is perfect and even if neither passes, that we have 2 that are more than just fringe bills that are essentially ignored is very real progress. Go to the OCDO home web page and look at the OC map. Note the number of gold star states. Go to handgunlaw.us and note the number of shall issue states we now have.

    Progress is sometimes slow and there are set-backs. As I have often pointed out, it took sixty years for the antis to get from the 1934 NFA to the 1994 AWB with a surge in violent crime in 20s-30s following prohibition to get the 34 NFA, civil unrest, assassinations and several media publicized marches with loaded weapons to get the 68 GCA, media fueled fear of violent drug lords with massively exaggerated focus on automatic weapons to get the 86 GCA (which also included FOPA so it wasn't a total loss) and finally the anti's zenith of the 94 AWB which was not nearly as stringent as they wanted as it didn't ban existing prohibited guns and accessories. We didn't effectively start to fight back really until 1987 when FL passed its CC law bringing citizen carry back to the forefront. Over the last 25 years we have been clawing back our rights state by state. Gaining CC in 49 states, increasing the number of shall issue states, gaining Constitutional carry in AK, AZ and WY in 03, 10 & 11, respectively (VT has always been such), and increasing the right to OC as well as normalizing OC throughout the process. According to Gallup we finally have a majority of US citizens again supporting our carry rights at least in general.

    So yes, we are making progress. Not as quickly or as fully as many here would like, but changing laws and cultural norms takes time. We must be patient and resolute in our goals.

    I do note that the OP shows being in NJ. Now I can certainly understand how someone in NJ feels that we are not making any progress. That state is among the most egregious anti-2A states in the union and I have seen nothing indicating that we have made any real progress in that state. However, through my in-laws I do know several NJ retirees now living in FL who regularly CC so perhaps there is hope for those still living there.

  8. #8
    Regular Member fjpro2a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    300

    Wow!!

    To: Deepdiver
    That was one hell of a great response. You expressed yourself eloquently, and have given me renewed belief that we can eventually win. I now know what I was doing wrong. I was letting one anti OC victory make me feel more depressed than five Pro OC victories would make me feel encouraged.
    To 40.S&W and jbone - Sorry for the sarcasm. I am almost 70, and probably getting a little ornery.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Southeast, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    5,974
    Quote Originally Posted by fjpro2a View Post
    To: Deepdiver
    That was one hell of a great response. You expressed yourself eloquently, and have given me renewed belief that we can eventually win. I now know what I was doing wrong. I was letting one anti OC victory make me feel more depressed than five Pro OC victories would make me feel encouraged.
    To 40.S&W and jbone - Sorry for the sarcasm. I am almost 70, and probably getting a little ornery.
    Thank you for your kind words. Glad I could help.

  10. #10
    Regular Member .40S&W's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    earth
    Posts
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by fjpro2a View Post

    To 40.S&W and jbone - Sorry for the sarcasm. I am almost 70, and probably getting a little ornery.
    No worries. I'll be there one day lol.
    Never get complacent. Practice situational awareness. Stay alert stay alive.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •