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Thread: Detained, no, NOT detained! St. Peters Red Lobster

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    Detained, no, NOT detained! St. Peters Red Lobster

    Well I made it by mom & Dad's before Starbucks tonight to get the wheel gun I keep there since pop wanted one and mom freaks over the XD's not having a safety. I needed it to complete the "cowboy" stereotype for the "M" in case he mustered the courage to actually show up and engage in civil conversation, he did not.

    So we call it a night at Starbucks and I head hom to take my lovely maiden out on the town to my least favorite restaurant Red Lobster, sea food is not my thing and the NY strip there is just ok, but it is one of those days it is her choice!

    Of course this is the same story for perhaps 300 other folks so there is a huge long wait, 1.5 hours is what we were told. Lucky for us, while we prefer a booth, they have backs on the chairs at the bar so it works too. A couple got up and we took their seats and began our dinner. Now for those reading along, note I am not carrying your regular compact automatic so many of us enjoy, I have a 6" stainless 686-4 hanging off my side, this is a fairly large "Dirty Harry" looking thing.

    The couple next to us at the bar are talking a little about it but not negative at all and after perhaps 30 minutes ask if it was indeed a Valentines day gift. I told them no and I had just come from a meeting with friends to help against the Starbucks boycott. Now bear in mind, we stood in the entry for perhaps 20 minutes talking with various persons and have now been seated for perhaps an hour when all of the sudden here are the popo! The conversation went very close to what is below, I did not have my camera on when it started, but did get it turned on during the event, if anything is worth showing, I will upload it but since it was so unexpected I doubt there is anything of value. Here are the events as they unfolded:

    Leo: You probably expected us to be here
    Me: (some what startled, he snuck up between us when I was not looking, I actually looked down before I realized it was a Leo) uhm, no I certainly did not but I see you are here,
    Leo: Well we have had some calls and you at least know why. Can you step outside with us and give us some ID?
    Me: Well if I am being officially being detained I will, but I would prefer not to, I want to finish my dinner, and yes sir, I am one of those guys, I am an advocate and a lobbyist, I will cooperate, but I want to finish my dinner.
    Leo: Ok, can we see some ID?
    Me: Yes, it is in my wallet (stand up and get wallet)
    Leo: "thank you, do you have your CCW?"
    Me: That is what that is sir, would you like one from another state? I have several?
    Leo: "No this is fine" (MO ID) and steps behind me leaving a much smaller and younger officer to my right (strong side)
    Me: to second smaller Leo "I am going to go ahead and sit back down, I don't want any of my movements to startle you, I am just going to eat"
    Leo2: That's fine sir, we know you are probably a good guy, just got the call"

    My lovely maiden: This is kind of stupid
    Me: No, they are being polite and just doing their job, just let them do it, it will be fine
    Lady who asked about gun earlier: No, it is really stupid, there is three of them and several cars, what a waste of money, you have been here over an hour, what kind of idiot calls the police when nothing is going on.
    Me: (I turn a look and sure enough there are three officers) Such is life, they are being nice and just doing their job, I do not blame them, it is just the world we live in now.
    Her Husband: Well it is no different than the one I have under my shirt, MO is an OC state, I don't understand what the big deal is.
    Me :well I conceal a lot too, we just had a meeting to support Starbucks from the brady boycott tonight or I might have been, I do both.
    Leo: Thank you sir (while handing ID back)
    Me: Have a good evening

    They then proceed over to the managers office in a huddle, all three of them and talk to him, no idea what they said. They then exited and talked in the parking lot. Time at managers office about 15 minutes, time outside about the same. We had finished our meal by then and I apologized to the bar keep for creating any sort of disturbance and he said it was nothing to him and he was thinking about getting his CCW and did I know a good trainer. I told him of Dan Smith at top gun and then also recommended Armed Missouri as well as Ultimate defense as recommended options.

    As we exited, the last two police cars were leaving and I waved, both officers waved back and smiled.

    KUDO's to the LEO's involved, VERY polite and professional through the entire interaction with me. St Peters is an OC with CCW area, they had no RAS to demand ID, I suppose I could have opted not to do so, but there was little reason not to and if I made that call, they do not have to have much to get RAS and keep me from my food for 20 or so minutes. Since they did not insist I go outside with them, I saw no reason not to make their job easier and MY evening more pleasant by consenting and giving it to them. If they ad insisted on going outside, I would have been far less compliant. I just did not want to mess up a nice evening.

    I will write a note to their Chief commending the polite response.
    Last edited by LMTD; 02-14-2012 at 11:41 PM.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Certainly made dinner interesting for everyone else there, I would guess.

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    Wow. Sounds like it went pretty well. Glad to hear it. Hopefully there were some people there who learned a little too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    Certainly made dinner interesting for everyone else there, I would guess.
    Already shot a note to the popo and mayor regarding the polite behavior.

    Watched the video and unless someone wants to watch me eat a potato while discussing the Chesterfield null and void ordinance that passed last week with the folks next to us while my ID is ran, there is nothing to see or hear.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oramac View Post
    Wow. Sounds like it went pretty well. Glad to hear it. Hopefully there were some people there who learned a little too.

    it went very well and it was almost as though the officers knew coming into it that it was nothing. Considering we had been there over an hour before the popo showed up, that should be a likely assumption. Some anti just got freaked I guess.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Fun, fun. Glad ot turned out well.
    "Ever notice once in a while you come across somebody you shouldn't have f***ed with......That's me." -Clint Eastwood "Gran Torino"

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    I do hope the officers did speak with whomever called them and explain that it's not against the law to OC.
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    I should like to offer an alternative view. This is not particularly a criticism of the OPer, his actions, or his views. But, I do want to offer something different for consideration, leaving adoption to readers' free choice.


    Police always have the option to observe from a distance.

    Thus, even a consensual contact like what seems happened in the OP is unacceptable from a strict rights-oriented viewpoint. Even a consensual contact necessarily says that exercising an enumerated right is grounds for suspicion and an investigative contact. Grounds for suspicion. An enumerated right.

    This time an OCer drew what seems like a genuinely professional cop with respect to the cops' demeanor. Such is never guaranteed. It could just as easily have been a pushy, obnoxious cop with a bit of a power trip in the backround. The legal jeopardy is always present in a police encounter. It may be slight, it may be large, but it is never absent. Some of us can still recall the dash-cam audio from a FOIA request where the two officers were oh-so polite and respectful to the OCer, but when they got back to the police car, you could hear one cop say to the other, "there has got to be something we can get him for."

    The true test of a police officer's professionalism is less how he behaves when he gets compliance to a consensual request than how he behaves when he gets polite refusals to all consensual requests. That's where you find out whether he is really willing to respect rights, or whether he is just pretending consensuality as a tactic.

    For myself, my policy is a formal written complaint every time police even consensually contact me about my OCd gun. I base this on two points.

    First, police can always observe from a distance. Thus, interfering with my dinner/walk/shopping by contacting me is unnecessary and merely a fishing expedition. Or, police are just making it look like they are doing something so they don't catch heat for not looking into it, in which case it is a political consideration; and, my rights and yours are not subject to the political concerns of police. In this category also, dispatchers can always ask what the OCer is doing with the gun, and just tell the caller that OC is perfectly legal, and call back if there is something more.

    Second, even a consensual contact necessarily implies grounds for suspicion. Of an enumerated right.

    Given the frequency with which police can screw up even a consensual encounter by misrepresenting the law, getting the law wrong, demanding an identity document absent a statute or case law authorizing it, etc, etc,--given the frequency that cops make mistakes even during consensual encounters, I have a good probability of grounds to complain about something anyway. So, I'm not adding all that much to the frequency of valid complaints by writing one in all cases.

    Did I experience what the OPer did, I would write a formal complaint hammering the suspicion-of-a-right angle, the interference angle, and the observe-from-a-distance angle. I would also hammer the cheesy tactic of not actually saying why the officers were there. That "you know why we're here" garbage is a police investigative tactic to see if the person has a guilty frame of mind. It is obnoxious. And, I would hammer the ostentatious display of three cars to check out one OCer doing something perfectly legal. Only at the very end would I compliment the officer on his polite demeanor. And, only slightly. Politeness while interfering with my Valentines dinner, and politeness while being suspicious of me for exercising an enumerated right only counts for so much. And, its not much. But, worth reinforcing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    It is obnoxious. And, I would hammer the ostentatious display of three cars to check out one OCer doing something perfectly legal. Only at the very end would I compliment the officer on his polite demeanor. And, only slightly. Politeness while interfering with my Valentines dinner, and politeness while being suspicious of me for exercising an enumerated right only counts for so much. And, its not much. But, worth reinforcing.

    Good points through out. And yes, it was obnoxious, my gall stated as much several times however she was regarding the "I am sure you expected us" comment. There is no doubt in my mind that they were taken aback by my polite refusal to immediately step outside with them, it was very clear from the looks on the two I could see facial expressions. Since it is a muni with an oc only with ccw it is somewhat of a ******* contest over ID and not one I wanted to engage in, but most certainly one I would have engaged in if they had pushed the going outside issue.

    While I was never in an fear of the situation, it was indeed not a part of my planned evening and I can see where a lot of persons would have hopped off the chair and marched right out with them, they certainly seemed to expect it.

    I actually thought about just asking them to leave, but it was simply the wrong night and timing. Not unlike RAS, call it the totality of the situation that garnered my polite consent.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Last edited by ThatOneChick; 02-15-2012 at 07:16 PM. Reason: Quote no longer needed.
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    Unless cited, any comments are my personal opinion and may not hold any weight or be correct.

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    Great story Rich !
    Last edited by Festus_Hagen; 02-15-2012 at 07:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moneymaker View Post
    <snipped for parts that make sense>
    Glad to hear it went well. We have a good story in the paper here about how well things went in Columbia and everyone is in support .

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    Regular Member Tony4310's Avatar
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    Loved the read, Rich....

    Everyone ignore the troll and it'll go away.

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    Well you certainly had a more interesting time than I did. I went to the Starbucks in Lake St. Louis yesterday morning, and the one on highway K in the afternoon. In both instances I ordered coffee and removed my coat, exposing my Sig P220. I grabbed a paper in one store, and a book in the other, and sat down for nearly an hour and a half in both locations, and absolutely nothing happened. I was just another customer minding his own business. Several customers walking by me did notice my pistol, but no one said anything, and I enjoyed my time, as did they. I know it doesn't make for an interesting story, but this is the response we should be looking for. A day when the people who choose to exercise their Second Amendment rights are just seen as part of daily soceity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moneymaker View Post
    .And why would you take your Wife,Family ect. out and have it ruined just to show you are carrying a weapon on your side?What kind of statement is that?
    I did it for you, you wanted "cowboy" but you failed to manage your way to starbucks like you said you were going to. I went 25 miles out of my way just to get the wheel gun so you could get your cowboy photo op. Since I grew up on a dairy farm I kinda qualify anyway and the starbucks gunner picked was right across the street from Walgreens so you would have access to meds when you started having your nervous breakdown.

    I called Betsy Bruce and Art Holiday to see if channel 2 or 4 wanted to come on out since I have done stuff with both of them in the past, they neither were interested and said it was indeed exactly what we say, no big deal and not a story.

    I did not ruin our evening, people such as yourself have indeed trained the general public that guns are bad and must be hidden and you have done it so long and thoroughly that the popo now tend to believe it as well. This is a webspace of persons dedicated to changing that back the way it was and it is frequented by persons interested in doing just that, not morons. <+====== likely to have hate mail from grapeshot for that, but I call em like I see em and I left it neutral

    Best I can offer you, run along now, this is a place where big boys and girls play and whining and blathering on render one ignored.

    peace
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Quote Originally Posted by moneymaker View Post
    Outstanding,You ruin your Dates night by having to walk around with your (DIRTY HARRY) weapon showing,To me you was just asking for a scene to happen!!!!!Seems some of the folks who did go to Starbucks all over the United States recieved the visit frm the local Police,Strange how a place that folks say Support your Cause,Seem to have the police called and check out the 1 person who had to show off there weapon and funnier thing is they all get taken aside or outside and then the police go talk to the Mananger.
    Like i said i am for OC but you can take it or leave it and no i did not go to Starbucks as i dont support them as i see it as a tool for them to gain revenue only attempt for them just like gay and same sex marriage they promote.And i still say you are doing it wrong as this brings up issues just like i stated that the police would be called even if it was legal.And why would you take your Wife,Family ect. out and have it ruined just to show you are carrying a weapon on your side?What kind of statement is that?
    Ever pick up a book, start reading, realize how bad it is but don't put it down because you expect it to get better? I kept waiting for the LOL or SARCASM OFF points. However, the troll remained constant.

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    We were next door at Bandanas for a quick dinner after having to work late last night. My wife and I were commenting on the police vehicles at Red Lobster, now we know why. Glad everything went smoothly for you. BTW, St Peters ordinance Section 210.200.C states that it is a $35 fine for failing to display a CCW permit upon the request of any peace officer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morpheus97 View Post
    We were next door at Bandanas for a quick dinner after having to work late last night. My wife and I were commenting on the police vehicles at Red Lobster, now we know why. Glad everything went smoothly for you. BTW, St Peters ordinance Section 210.200.C states that it is a $35 fine for failing to display a CCW permit upon the request of any peace officer.
    They Mirror 571.xxx, you are indeed not allowed to lie about such things, however, they must detain to demand, the contact I had with them would be "casual" not detainment which is exactly what I clarified with them when not going outside with them. If it was detainment, I would not have failed to follow a lawful order. I gave them the MO permit on purpose so they could find it in MULES and be done quick. Again, they were very polite despite interupting our meal. Once he had the permit we chatted about it, but basicly ignored them. If you live clean you know you have no wants or warrants and I have never in my adult life comitted a crime after I grew out of smoking weed 20 some years ago and I won't drink and drive either.

    How did you miss the big yellow heep! If it had been my choice we would have been at Bandanna's over the sea food joint, but what the heck, she loves it.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Why not arrest the guy who called in a violent MWAG call for misuse of 911? After all they wasted their time and cost taxpayer money for nothing.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Parts of this may be specific to Washington, but I suspect much of it is applicable nationwide.
    http://www.waprosecutors.org/MANUALS...ONFESSIONS.pdf
    and it would appear that it was a de facto detention, although you didn't allow it to be conducted as one (for which you justifiably deserve kudos!)


    Excerpted - -
    ...
    2. Restrictions. The following conduct is beyond the scope of a social contact or consensual encounter:
    • The use of coercive language to initiate a contact. "Gentlemen, I'd like to speak with you, could you come to my car?" or "Can I talk to you guys for a minute?" is permissive. "Wait right here" is coercive and constitutes a seizure. State v. Barnes, 96 Wn. App. 217, 223, 978 P.2d 1131 (1999)

    • Retaining control of identification while verifying information that was given. See, e.g., State v. Thomas, 91 Wn. App. 195, 201, 955 P.2d 420, review denied, 136 Wn.2d 1030 (1998) (officer, while retaining the defendant's identification, took three steps back to conduct a warrants check on his hand-held radio); State v. Dudas, 52 Wn. App. 832, 834, 764 P.2d 1012 (1988), review denied, 112 Wn.2d 1011 (1989) (deputy took the defendant's identification card and returned to the patrol car).
    ...

    Some non-exhaustive factors that court’s will consider in determining whether officers have escalated a consensual encounter into a seizure include:
    • the number of officers
    • whether weapons were displayed
    • whether the encounter occurred in a public or non-public setting
    • whether the officer’s tone or manner was authoritative, so as to imply that compliance would be compelled
    • whether the officers informed the person of his right to terminate the encounter.
    • whether the officer physically touched the citizen
    • whether the officer asked the citizen perform an act such as removing hands from pockets
    • whether a patrol car’s overhead lights or sirens are activated
    United States v. Washington, 490 F.3d 765, 771-72 (9th Cir. 2007); State v. 70 Harrington, 167 Wn.2d 656, 222 P.3d 92 (2009); State v. Beito, 147 Wn. App. 504, 195 P.3d State v. Mote, 129 Wn. App. 276, 120 P.3d 596 (2005).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Parts of this may be specific to Washington, but I suspect much of it is applicable nationwide.
    http://www.waprosecutors.org/MANUALS...ONFESSIONS.pdf
    and it would appear that it was a de facto detention, although you didn't allow it to be conducted as one (for which you justifiably deserve kudos!)
    Yes, I agree that once he had the card in his hand, it was a pseudo detainment. While I could have asked for my card back immediately to confirm my legal position, I opted for compliance. Since they came to me and I politely declined to go with them, there was no “am I free to go” element as I was intent upon staying and simply wanted them to leave. If I had been done with my meal, I might well have asked for my ID back and told them we were leaving but it simply was not the case.

    We are getting real close to a level of understanding in the area regarding OC and law enforcement and opting for a pleasant experience for everyone involved may well lead to far better relations in the future. I have already reached out to their leadership for an opportunity to have a meeting of the minds, they will either agree or decline, had I been a jackleg about it, no such chance would exist.

    If we get a dialog going, perhaps we can develop into a situation like other areas have where it is handled at the 911 level and all Missourians may carry as they choose instead of having to fear encounters with officers. That is my hope and what I am working for, if we can get it done we are on the path to taking our country back from the government and can develop it as intended where they REPRESENT us, not try and rule us.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Overall, I agree with Citizen.
    The only thing I saw that mitigated their interference is:
    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD
    it is a muni with an oc only with ccw
    So yes, simply carrying is RAS.
    That needs to be fixed, in many states.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Overall, I agree with Citizen.
    The only thing I saw that mitigated their interference is:

    So yes, simply carrying is RAS.
    That needs to be fixed, in many states.

    I am not SURE in MO that is the case. It is indeed a licensed activity, but just like driving, they may not stop "just to check" here. As with anything else, in the words of so many "just follow until they screw up" aka weaved out of lane etc. They can develop a reason to satisfy RAS pretty quick and it does not take much of a lie to make that trip if they are dishonest.

    Again, I along with several others are fairly well known in the region now and it IMHO was better to work with them so I could reach out to them and their polite demeanor indicates it might well be a possibility. If we get our laws passed this year, while not our responsibility to train them, it certainly is going to need to be done and if not us then who?

    I look forward to the day every non-incarcerated citizen may make his/her own self defense choices and walk around un-accosted by the government for their choices, it is that simple. Some of the work has to be hard and mean, some has to be nice and pleasant, the latter seemed the better step all around last night.

    Don’t worry, warm and fuzzy did not creep in, I still got a few “morons” and “clues” to pass out before I am done
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    If OC is OK w/CCW, why push it in those localities. He is gunna ask for ID anyway whether he knows or not to ask for the CCW. The only thing I do not like is the checking you out. It should be, holds the ID up to see if man matches picture and a friendly Thank you Sir, hands CCW back and off the LEO goes.

    Oh, by the way, why assume that they did not observe for some amount of time before making contact? Ya would think that folks, around here anyway, would not make a determination about the LEO(s) conduct absent any facts to confirm the conclusion alluded to.

    Thanks for the short Rich.....Red Lobster....just reading the words gets me to itching and scratching.

    P.S. I singularly liked the below.

    Lady who asked about gun earlier: No, it is really stupid, there is three of them and several cars, what a waste of money, you have been here over an hour, what kind of idiot calls the police when nothing is going on.
    Me: (I turn a look and sure enough there are three officers) Such is life, they are being nice and just doing their job, I do not blame them, it is just the world we live in now.
    Her Husband: Well it is no different than the one I have under my shirt, MO is an OC state, I don't understand what the big deal is.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    Leo: You probably expected us to be here
    Me: (some what startled, he snuck up between us when I was not looking, I actually looked down before I realized it was a Leo) uhm, no I certainly did not but I see you are here,
    LMTD, you are a very wise man. I think that opening statement by them was an attempt to get you to say something incriminating against yourself and you didn't fall for it.

    Responding to that with a "yes" is basically saying you did something wrong even though you didn't.

    Good for you for keeping your cool.

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