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Thread: Big support needed now: VCDL "castle doctrine" position now "strongly oppose" !!!

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Big support needed now: VCDL "castle doctrine" position now "strongly oppose" !!!

    We have two urgent action items on gun bills being heard TODAY, Wednesday, February 15th, in the Senate Courts of Justice Committee in the afternoon.

    The first item is to OPPOSE the two House Castle Doctrine bills, HB 14 and HB 48. It is VCDL's opinion that these bills could cause more harm than good by inadvertently destroying some of Virginia's excellent common law protections. For that reason VCDL is shifting from NEUTRAL to STRONGLY OPPOSE, as we must stop these bills from moving forward NOW.

    This is NOT something that VCDL is doing lightly. We have had internal debates ad nauseum between our lawyers over these bills. But after the dust settled we have decided that we cannot risk letting the current Castle Doctrine bills pass into law.

    VCDL proposes instead to vet a more comprehensive bill over the summer for introduction next year. Way too much is at stake to goof up the excellent protections we already enjoy as Virginia citizens. In the end we might also determine from the vetting that it is best to leave Virginia's common law alone.

    To send a message to your Senator to oppose HB 14 and HB 48, click on the link below (WE MUST ACT **NOW**):

    ***click-here hyperlink***
    Last edited by user; 02-15-2012 at 05:28 AM.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    This is also posted in the action items sticky. Super important indeed. We do not want these bad bills. We can wait another year for Castle Doctrine.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Can say that I strongly support the shift to strongly oppose HB 14 and HB 48.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I'm debating whether or not it would be counterproductive for me to contact my Senator. We already know how Dick Saslaw is going to vote, and if I contact him about it now, when we put forward the bill next year, he can point back to this year and talk about how his constituents told him unambiguously to oppose the Castle Doctrine.

    Is there another option for me to help out from here in Northern Virginia?
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Agree. Bills are too narrow and confined, and dangerous to our current laws. Email sent as requested.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 02-15-2012 at 07:38 AM.
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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Action taken.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

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    Regular Member mk4's Avatar
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    done!
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    Regular Member Felix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Can say that I strongly support the shift to strongly oppose HB 14 and HB 48.
    What took so long for VCDL to formally move those bills to the oppose column, Dale? On the eve of the Senate Justice Committee hearing no less!

    The VCDL execs who've been willing to discuss the debate have voiced opposition for weeks.

    And what's the counter-argument advocated by those execs on the other side of the fence? Since this is an all-volunteer organization funded by donations and membership dues, members should have some insight into the pros & cons of that debate. No names, just generalities.
    Daily carry: SIG P229 .40 S&W

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    I'm debating whether or not it would be counterproductive for me to contact my Senator. We already know how Dick Saslaw is going to vote, and if I contact him about it now, when we put forward the bill next year, he can point back to this year and talk about how his constituents told him unambiguously to oppose the Castle Doctrine.

    Is there another option for me to help out from here in Northern Virginia?

    How about stating that you are asking him to oppose this particular bill because of these [enumerate them] particular concerns? I'm stuck with the same problem here with Henry Marsh. But I hammer away at him regularly anyhow. Sure, Saslaw will say that folks asked him to oppose Castle Doctrine. Then you can start a contest with him about the reason(s) he was asked to oppose the bill.

    Even this late in the day it's satisfying to see VCDL admitting that getting even a bad bill and then trying to fix it is NOT the way to advance the cause.

    stay safe.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Done!
    We were discussing this last night.

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    Sent mine as soon as I got the VCDL email this morning.

    FWIW, the VCDL canned email does give as the reason that these are bills likely to do harm rather than codify common law. glad to see that they picked a side and hope it's not too late.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix View Post
    What took so long for VCDL to formally move those bills to the oppose column, Dale? On the eve of the Senate Justice Committee hearing no less!

    The VCDL execs who've been willing to discuss the debate have voiced opposition for weeks.

    And what's the counter-argument advocated by those execs on the other side of the fence? Since this is an all-volunteer organization funded by donations and membership dues, members should have some insight into the pros & cons of that debate. No names, just generalities.
    Think that there was confidence that the bills could be consolidated and fixed. There were a LOT of behind the scenes meetings and correspondence with our elected representatives - when it became obvious that wasn't effective enough, the shift in position was the only option left.

    We do not need Castle Doctrine reduced to black letter law. Many however want this accomplished and I both understand and agree. Those members of VCDL that may have supported these bills on the surface probably did not see all of the ramifications at first blush.

    The GA advocates/patrons really thought that they were doing a good thing. It's just such a complicated issue in Virginia to codify and retain all of the strengths and protections we now enjoy in a single statute w/o losing some of them along the way.

    Many thanks to the LAC (Legal Action Committe) for their hard work, blood sweat and tears in digging so deeply into this issue and sharing their insight/expertise. BTW - their work started on this long before these bills were ever offered and continues today. A fully vented bill recommendation in 2013 makes the most sense - so there it is.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Doogie's Avatar
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    Sent both items to Stosch.

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Sent to Loupassi and Watkins

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    Done. I'm glad to see the change of support from the organization leaders at VCDL.

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    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    Hit, we really need these to get dumped. Lets do castle doctrine RIGHT, and these bills are VERY WRONG.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
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    Regular Member vt357's Avatar
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    I had already sent my Senator an email asking them to oppose SB 4 (they voted for it anyway), but I sent the followup asking them to oppose these bills now. Hopefully the message will get through.

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    Regular Member streetdoc's Avatar
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    Sent the canned e-mail to both me Delegate and Senator this morning then followed up with a phone call at lunch time. Its always nice when their Aides recognize your name and can remember conversations that they have had with you.
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    No need...

    I had already discussed the subject with my Senator earlier when I decided VCDL had this one all cocked up (by being neutral) and wasn't representing my best interests. Glad to see some common sense finally prevailed. But I've got the same question as Felix--What the heck took so long? VCDL is operating like a rudderless ship where CD is concerned! Phil, are you listening to what the membership is saying? Because if you are, this decision could have been made some time ago.

    And I'm not buying Grape's explanation. Haven't we seen too many cases of last minute, un-vetted (even on the floor) bill changes which go horribly wrong with unintended consequences? To think the bills could be made right on the fly just defies logic and past history.

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911 Enthusiast View Post
    No need...

    I had already discussed the subject with my Senator earlier when I decided VCDL had this one all cocked up (by being neutral) and wasn't representing my best interests. Glad to see some common sense finally prevailed. But I've got the same question as Felix--What the heck took so long? VCDL is operating like a rudderless ship where CD is concerned! Phil, are you listening to what the membership is saying? Because if you are, this decision could have been made some time ago.

    And I'm not buying Grape's explanation. Haven't we seen too many cases of last minute, un-vetted (even on the floor) bill changes which go horribly wrong with unintended consequences? To think the bills could be made right on the fly just defies logic and past history.
    Your comments are not a little overboard and decidedly inflammatory. VCDL does not control the GA - we have some influence and a good working relationship with many. PVC especially spends countless, and I sometimes think thankless, hours striving to make things better. You only see the tip of the iceberg.

    Bills have been "adjusted on the fly" (wording substituted, amended, voted down, tabled, carried over) and will continue to be as that is part of the legislative process.

    BTW - I stand by my previous explanation - it was short/consolidated but accurate. The attorneys (LAC) contributed heavily to trying to get this worked out. If you have something positive to contribute, by all means do so - but see no reason to attack the man on point.

    In a perfect world.............
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Think that there was confidence that the bills could be consolidated and fixed. There were a LOT of behind the scenes meetings and correspondence with our elected representatives - when it became obvious that wasn't effective enough, the shift in position was the only option left.

    We do not need Castle Doctrine reduced to black letter law. Many however want this accomplished and I both understand and agree. Those members of VCDL that may have supported these bills on the surface probably did not see all of the ramifications at first blush.

    The GA advocates/patrons really thought that they were doing a good thing. It's just such a complicated issue in Virginia to codify and retain all of the strengths and protections we now enjoy in a single statute w/o losing some of them along the way.

    Many thanks to the LAC (Legal Action Committe) for their hard work, blood sweat and tears in digging so deeply into this issue and sharing their insight/expertise. BTW - their work started on this long before these bills were ever offered and continues today. A fully vented bill recommendation in 2013 makes the most sense - so there it is.
    What has me so confused is that there were six of these so-called "Castle Doctrine" bills submitted (2 Senate, 4 House) that the NRA claims to have initiated. All of these bills had the same set of conditions for a valid self-defense act (which is the problem), but yet VCDL remained mum, while the NRA pushed for its membership to urge passage.

    With that going on, how could VCDL have expected these bills to either be neutered or fail?
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Your comments are not a little overboard and decidedly inflammatory.
    Cut the new guy a little slack, Dale. Certainly no more "inflammatory" than 'Nap's' thoughts quoted below in a different thread. He had a lot of support on the subject down at our end of the table last night.

    I hope it's not too late Tfred!
    Unfortunately, many members just take what VCDL says as the last word without question. When they shift in mid stride, the damage has already been done.

    I don't understand VCDL's legal advisory team

    They all claim to be Pro 2nd but the road to Hell is paved with false claims.

    Dan Hawes has a proven track record and has always been honest about his position(s) and goals. I respect his opinion.

    Not being an insider, I don't know all the advisers but one is an NRA lawyer or former NRA lawyer.
    Another is the lawyer for the FOP. I don't give a Tinkers Damn what they think! I strongly suspect another traditionally sides with the Government mostly because they paid for his law degree.

    Why in Gods name would VCDL even allow input from such biased sources, let alone actually give them a position with VCDL. When the enemy is at the gate, it's best not to invite him in for dinner!

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    What has me so confused is that there were six of these so-called "Castle Doctrine" bills submitted (2 Senate, 4 House) that the NRA claims to have initiated. All of these bills had the same set of conditions for a valid self-defense act (which is the problem), but yet VCDL remained mum, while the NRA pushed for its membership to urge passage.

    With that going on, how could VCDL have expected these bills to either be neutered or fail?
    No confusion - that is what the NRA does - make any claim they like from Heller, to NPS land carry, to this - doesn't make it so.

    VCDL was not sitting on their hands. To be neither for a bill nor against it in principle is to be what? = Neutral......until there was no other viable option remaining but to oppose. That ladies and gentlemen is where we are.

    My suggestion: rather than find fault with the effort to fix this one, let's rally around the flag and get the job done. Which BTW I think we are doing.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    No confusion - that is what the NRA does - make any claim they like from Heller, to NPS land carry, to this - doesn't make it so.

    VCDL was not sitting on their hands. To be neither for a bill nor against it in principle is to be what? = Neutral......until there was no other viable option remaining but to oppose. That ladies and gentlemen is where we are.

    My suggestion: rather than find fault with the effort to fix this one, let's rally around the flag and get the job done. Which BTW I think we are doing.
    While you were being "Neutral", I and others did oppose - vigorously! Glad you could make it to the party.
    Last edited by 2a4all; 02-15-2012 at 03:53 PM.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

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