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Thread: Unemployment Office Gottcha

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    Unemployment Office Gottcha

    yesterday morning, 2/14/2012, my son had to go to the unemployment office to pick up some tax papers. I went with him for support and to help dealing with the runaround we expected to have there. So off we went. I was wearing my Springfield, EMP (9mm 1911 with chrome slide and black frame) in a regular holster on the right side. Open carry as a almost always do. We got there started the process and within about 1 minute the security guard walked up to me and ask to talk. We stepped out the door and he ask if he could see my ID. I very politely ask why he wanted my id card, i had done nothing wrong, was bothering no-one nor being any problem. He mentioned that they did not allow weapons of any kind in the office. I politely informed him that being a state office, "Virginia Employment Commission" it was illegal and against state law for them to ban weapons on their site. He said that he would get the " security manager". As i was helping my son obtain his form the "manager" arrived and informed me that it was illegal to carry a weapon into any state office. I informed him that i do it all the time at DMV and State law prohibits them from banning weapons except for Courts and ask for him to show me the law, instructions, etc that stated that policy. Again i went through explaining to him the real law. He then as if i would just wait outside. I said no, i was helping my son with his problem. If he liked he could call the police and they would straighten out the problem. He left "to make some phone calls". as he left i mentioned that if he called the state Attorney General's office they would give him the correct data. Needless to say we continued with our business as planned. During the entire time every one was very civil, no shouting no bullying etc. A moderate number of people were sitting there doing business and all looked on, smiling at times and at times The security guard was very polite and understanding, never got the "i am security, you do as i say for now" attitude with me. I got the feeling that he felt between to hard spots while this was going on. Just as we were finishing our business, the "Security Manager" came back to the front desk where we were to talk to another worker and never uttered a word to us. We left without incident and when we got home my son was explaining it to his fiancee and they thought it was very interesting. Now if i had become belligerent, yelling and defensive things might have turned out different and they may not have learned something as they apparently did that day.

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Way to stand your ground!!!! Seems he confirmed that you were correct but he couldn't bring himself to apologize to you. Do you plan to pursue the matter further?
    Last edited by thebigsd; 02-15-2012 at 06:23 AM.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Big thumbs up to you!
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Way to keep your cool while also standing your ground.

    Interesting (but not unexpected) that the first thing out of the box they wanted your ID. Wonder what specific policy they have in place to detail what they must then do with that information once they would have obtained it. Do they have a process to describe what to do with information obtained without valid authorization?

    Never know until I find myself in that situation but I might have wanted to have had one more conversation with that manager. I don't like being told that I've broken the law, and think that at that point I would have wanted to hear the manager admit I hadn't in front of the security guard. Else you walk away and the manager blows it off by saying that he was right but didn't want to raise a bigger fuss. You never know. But think you handled it very well!

  5. #5
    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    Great way to handle it.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
    -- George Washington

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I agree you handled it well except for one thing...

    I politely informed him that being a state office, "Virginia Employment Commission" it was illegal and against state law for them to ban weapons on their site.
    Why is it illegal?

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwolfs69 View Post
    I politely informed him that being a state office, "Virginia Employment Commission" it was illegal and against state law for them to ban weapons on their site.
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I agree you handled it well except for one thing...

    Why is it illegal?
    I have the same question. AFIK, preemption only applies to localities, not state agncies.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  8. #8
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    I have the same question. AFIK, preemption only applies to localities, not state agncies.
    That was what I was getting at.
    While I applaud the OP for handling it well, it's always good to have your facts traight before you argue them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    I have the same question. AFIK, preemption only applies to localities, not state agncies.
    Strictly speaking, according to Cuccinelli's opinion on carry on college campuses, if you have a CHP state agencies can't prohibit carry unless they implement a regulation to that effect. A policy doesn't make it illegal, and the permit allows you to carry unless otherwise prohibited by law.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

  10. #10
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    Strictly speaking, according to Cuccinelli's opinion on carry on college campuses, if you have a CHP state agencies can't prohibit carry unless they implement a regulation to that effect. A policy doesn't make it illegal, and the permit allows you to carry unless otherwise prohibited by law.
    A. That opinion was college campus specific.
    B. That was only an opinion with no legal weight.

    Oh..yeah

    C. The OP didn't say he had a CHP (Some of us don't you know) and if he did, why discuss it here?
    Like Ed says:
    And how does this tie into Virginia Open Carry?
    Last edited by peter nap; 02-15-2012 at 12:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    A. That opinion was college campus specific.
    B. That was only an opinion with no legal weight.

    Oh..yeah

    C. The OP didn't say he had a CHP (Some of us don't you know) and if he did, why discuss it here?
    Like Ed says:
    And how does this tie into Virginia Open Carry?
    A. The legal reasoning given would also apply to any other state agency
    B. Your point?
    C. I'm well aware that not everyone who carries has a CHP. However, some people who OC still have a CHP for other reasons, or (like myself) like to have the option to switch between the two.

    Note that I didn't say that someone with a CHP had to conceal, only that their carry couldn't be restricted. It would be like the GA building, were you would need a CHP to carry the firearm, but you aren't required to actually carry it concealed.

    The relevant part of his opinion, which (if you look at the footnotes) would also apply to other state agencies besides UVa:
    Second, a regulation has the force of law, whereas a policy does not. 17 DiGiacinto establishes
    that a University has the authority to promulgate regulations restricting firearms inside certain buildings.
    As with regulations, the authority conferred by the General Assembly upon the Board of Visitors of the
    University includes the authority to create policies governing buildings at the University.18 Unless a
    policy collides with a law or regulation, a policy may be enforced by the University.

    With respect to the general right of "open carry," the University may develop a policy that
    restricts the right of open carry within certain buildings. Prior opinions of this office have recognized the
    right, tied to the Second Amendment, to openly carry a firearm. 19 This right to openly carry, like the
    Second Amendment right generally, may be limited in "sensitive places" like "schools and government
    buildings.,,2o In other words, the right to bear arms does not include an unqualified right to openly carry a
    firearm in a sensitive place or certain government buildings. No statute or regulation specifically
    addresses the right to openly carry a firearm. Therefore, the University, which is vested with the authority
    to promulgate and enforce policies governing its buildings, may enforce this policy. University officials
    may request that persons who openly carry in buildings covered by the policy abide by the policy. If
    these persons refuse to follow it, and also refuse to leave, they may be charged with trespass.


    Unlike open carry, there is an additional statutory overlay that addresses persons who have
    received a concealed carry permit. Section] 8.2-308(0) provides that "[t]he granting of a concealed
    handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or
    in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law[.]"21 A prior opinion of this Office
    concluded that "[t]he clear intent of the General Assembly is to allow concealed handgun permit holders
    to carry handguns only in areas where it has not specifically prohibited the carrying of handguns.,,22
    Where the possession of a handgun is prohibited by law, persons with a concealed carry weapon may not
    bring their weapons to such locations.23
    In DiGiacinto, George Mason University promulgated a
    regulation, which has the force of law, prohibiting a person from carrying a firearm in certain buildings.
    Therefore, persons with concealed carry permits could not bring them into the specified buildings because
    doing so under this regulation was "otherwise prohibited by law." The University of Virginia's policy, in
    contrast, is not a regulation and, therefore, does not have the force of law. Consequently, the policy does
    not fall within the terms of the exception contemplated in § 18.2-308(0). Under § 18.2-308(0), persons
    with valid concealed carry permits may not, through a policy, as opposed to a regulation, be prohibited
    from exercising their right to carry a concealed handgun.
    To prevent persons who have concealed carry
    permits from bringing them into University or Medical Center buildings, the University would need to
    promulgate a regulation tailored to that effect.
    Note the parts that I bolded. While he says that they could promulgate a policy against open carry, such policy would not be a regulation and would not have the force of law.

    Additionally, I think that Cuccinelli made a serious oversight in citing 18.2-308(O) as only allowing concealed carry. The text of 18.2-308(O) only refers to the possession of a handgun, not the specifics of the mode of carry. Therefore, it should not make a difference whether a CHP holder conceals or openly carries, as the CHP acts as an authorization to carry where not otherwise prohibited by law.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grylnsmn View Post
    A. The legal reasoning given would also apply to any other state agency
    B. Your point?
    My point is simple. It is a defense, not the law and shouldn't becited as such.

    C. I'm well aware that not everyone who carries has a CHP. However, some people who OC still have a CHP for other reasons, or (like myself) like to have the option to switch between the two.

    Note that I didn't say that someone with a CHP had to conceal, only that their carry couldn't be restricted. It would be like the GA building, were you would need a CHP to carry the firearm, but you aren't required to actually carry it concealed.
    That's true but this an OC board and as much as the CHiPpers would like it to be a "Get a CHP so you can OC and play Dress Up, it isn't!

    Last edited by peter nap; 02-15-2012 at 02:14 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    State agencies are not included in § 15.2-915 Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    Also Rules do not a Regulation make - they are very different animals.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    thank you for helping security understand the laws in virginia

    thank you for helping security understand the laws in virginia

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    State agencies are not included in § 15.2-915 Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    Also Rules do not a Regulation make - they are very different animals.
    OK, why are we talking about preemption? How about the good old Constitution of the Commonwealth of Virginia, Article I, section 13
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    State agencies are not included in § 15.2-915 Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    Also Rules do not a Regulation make - they are very different animals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    OK, why are we talking about preemption? How about the good old Constitution of the Commonwealth of Virginia, Article I, section 13
    Do we have a volunteer to research and fund this position through the courts?

    PS - Please don't lose such a case.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I agree you handled it well except for one thing...



    Why is it illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    I have the same question. AFIK, preemption only applies to localities, not state agncies.


    I was waiting for this......
    James Reynolds

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    Regular Member stickslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwolfs69 View Post
    yesterday morning, 2/14/2012, my son had to go to the unemployment office to pick up some tax papers. I went with him for support and to help dealing with the runaround we expected to have there. So off we went. I was wearing my Springfield, EMP (9mm 1911 with chrome slide and black frame) in a regular holster on the right side. Open carry as a almost always do. We got there started the process and within about 1 minute the security guard walked up to me and ask to talk. We stepped out the door and he ask if he could see my ID. I very politely ask why he wanted my id card, i had done nothing wrong, was bothering no-one nor being any problem. He mentioned that they did not allow weapons of any kind in the office. I politely informed him that being a state office, "Virginia Employment Commission" it was illegal and against state law for them to ban weapons on their site. He said that he would get the " security manager". As i was helping my son obtain his form the "manager" arrived and informed me that it was illegal to carry a weapon into any state office. I informed him that i do it all the time at DMV and State law prohibits them from banning weapons except for Courts and ask for him to show me the law, instructions, etc that stated that policy. Again i went through explaining to him the real law. He then as if i would just wait outside. I said no, i was helping my son with his problem. If he liked he could call the police and they would straighten out the problem. He left "to make some phone calls". as he left i mentioned that if he called the state Attorney General's office they would give him the correct data. Needless to say we continued with our business as planned. During the entire time every one was very civil, no shouting no bullying etc. A moderate number of people were sitting there doing business and all looked on, smiling at times and at times The security guard was very polite and understanding, never got the "i am security, you do as i say for now" attitude with me. I got the feeling that he felt between to hard spots while this was going on. Just as we were finishing our business, the "Security Manager" came back to the front desk where we were to talk to another worker and never uttered a word to us. We left without incident and when we got home my son was explaining it to his fiancee and they thought it was very interesting. Now if i had become belligerent, yelling and defensive things might have turned out different and they may not have learned something as they apparently did that day.
    Great story wolf. Good on you!

  19. #19
    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Weather correct on the laws/regs/decrees or not, I applaud the OP for doin' the do!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat10k View Post
    Weather correct on the laws/regs/decrees or not, I applaud the OP for doin' the do!
    +1

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat10k View Post
    Weather correct on the laws/regs/decrees or not, I applaud the OP for doin' the do!
    As do I
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  22. #22
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    I thought there was a thread a while back that settled this debate. IIRC the VEC DOES have a regulation against firearms. Anybody better in the know than I am here?
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    I thought there was a thread a while back that settled this debate. IIRC the VEC DOES have a regulation against firearms. Anybody better in the know than I am here?
    A cite would be nice on that proported regulation.

    Then there is this:
    "Virginia Employment Commission policy prohibits weapons on its
    premises. Anyone observed with or believed to have a weapon may be
    refused services and asked to leave the premises. Any incident
    involving the possession of a weapon on VEC property may be reported
    to local law enforcement.authorities.

    "Thank you for your cooperation.
    VEC
    Virginia Employment Commission"

    An email to the manager of the Radford Workforce office requesting a
    citation of the statutory authority for such a policy quickly
    percolated up to the VEC in Richmond, resulting in several phone calls
    from Sam Lupica, COO of the VEC, in which he confirmed the language
    above was, indeed, the "official VEC policy".

    I made several requests for a citation of statutory authority, but
    they went unanswered amid a flurry of assertions that the VEC
    "possessed certain [unspecified] police powers", and that the VEC's
    "counsel in the Atty General's office" had OK'd the policy. I said
    that I remained unconvinced of its legality, and was "considering
    further action."

    The next day, January 28th, I received another call from COO Lupica
    stating that the Atty General's office had just informed him that
    VEC's "no weapons policy" was legally "untenable", and he assured me
    that all the signs would be removed.
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...igns-down.html
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    A cite would be nice on that proported regulation.

    Then there is this:

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...igns-down.html
    Just to fill in the question that I'm sure others will have besides me... that thread is from February, 2010.

    TFred

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    Regular Member .40S&W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    That's true but this an OC board and as much as the CHiPpers would like it to be a[B] "Get a CHP so you can OC and play Dress Up, it isn't!
    Glad to know you are the final say on this. I was confused at first.
    Never get complacent. Practice situational awareness. Stay alert stay alive.

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