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Unemployment Office Gottcha

cwolfs69

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
54
Location
churchland, Virginia, USA
yesterday morning, 2/14/2012, my son had to go to the unemployment office to pick up some tax papers. I went with him for support and to help dealing with the runaround we expected to have there. So off we went. I was wearing my Springfield, EMP (9mm 1911 with chrome slide and black frame) in a regular holster on the right side. Open carry as a almost always do. We got there started the process and within about 1 minute the security guard walked up to me and ask to talk. We stepped out the door and he ask if he could see my ID. I very politely ask why he wanted my id card, i had done nothing wrong, was bothering no-one nor being any problem. He mentioned that they did not allow weapons of any kind in the office. I politely informed him that being a state office, "Virginia Employment Commission" it was illegal and against state law for them to ban weapons on their site. He said that he would get the " security manager". As i was helping my son obtain his form the "manager" arrived and informed me that it was illegal to carry a weapon into any state office. I informed him that i do it all the time at DMV and State law prohibits them from banning weapons except for Courts and ask for him to show me the law, instructions, etc that stated that policy. Again i went through explaining to him the real law. He then as if i would just wait outside. I said no, i was helping my son with his problem. If he liked he could call the police and they would straighten out the problem. He left "to make some phone calls". as he left i mentioned that if he called the state Attorney General's office they would give him the correct data. Needless to say we continued with our business as planned. During the entire time every one was very civil, no shouting no bullying etc. A moderate number of people were sitting there doing business and all looked on, smiling at times and at times The security guard was very polite and understanding, never got the "i am security, you do as i say for now" attitude with me. I got the feeling that he felt between to hard spots while this was going on. Just as we were finishing our business, the "Security Manager" came back to the front desk where we were to talk to another worker and never uttered a word to us. We left without incident and when we got home my son was explaining it to his fiancee and they thought it was very interesting. Now if i had become belligerent, yelling and defensive things might have turned out different and they may not have learned something as they apparently did that day.
 

thebigsd

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Messages
3,535
Location
Quarryville, PA
Way to stand your ground!!!! Seems he confirmed that you were correct but he couldn't bring himself to apologize to you. Do you plan to pursue the matter further?
 
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Glockster

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2010
Messages
786
Location
Houston
Way to keep your cool while also standing your ground.

Interesting (but not unexpected) that the first thing out of the box they wanted your ID. Wonder what specific policy they have in place to detail what they must then do with that information once they would have obtained it. Do they have a process to describe what to do with information obtained without valid authorization?

Never know until I find myself in that situation but I might have wanted to have had one more conversation with that manager. I don't like being told that I've broken the law, and think that at that point I would have wanted to hear the manager admit I hadn't in front of the security guard. Else you walk away and the manager blows it off by saying that he was right but didn't want to raise a bigger fuss. You never know. But think you handled it very well!
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
I agree you handled it well except for one thing...

I politely informed him that being a state office, "Virginia Employment Commission" it was illegal and against state law for them to ban weapons on their site.

Why is it illegal?
 

2a4all

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,846
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
I politely informed him that being a state office, "Virginia Employment Commission" it was illegal and against state law for them to ban weapons on their site.

I agree you handled it well except for one thing...

Why is it illegal?
I have the same question. AFIK, preemption only applies to localities, not state agncies.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
I have the same question. AFIK, preemption only applies to localities, not state agncies.

That was what I was getting at.
While I applaud the OP for handling it well, it's always good to have your facts traight before you argue them.
 

grylnsmn

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
620
Location
Pacific Northwest
I have the same question. AFIK, preemption only applies to localities, not state agncies.

Strictly speaking, according to Cuccinelli's opinion on carry on college campuses, if you have a CHP state agencies can't prohibit carry unless they implement a regulation to that effect. A policy doesn't make it illegal, and the permit allows you to carry unless otherwise prohibited by law.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Strictly speaking, according to Cuccinelli's opinion on carry on college campuses, if you have a CHP state agencies can't prohibit carry unless they implement a regulation to that effect. A policy doesn't make it illegal, and the permit allows you to carry unless otherwise prohibited by law.

A. That opinion was college campus specific.
B. That was only an opinion with no legal weight.

Oh..yeah

C. The OP didn't say he had a CHP (Some of us don't you know) and if he did, why discuss it here?
Like Ed says:
And how does this tie into Virginia Open Carry?
 
Last edited:

grylnsmn

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
620
Location
Pacific Northwest
A. That opinion was college campus specific.
B. That was only an opinion with no legal weight.

Oh..yeah

C. The OP didn't say he had a CHP (Some of us don't you know) and if he did, why discuss it here?
Like Ed says:
And how does this tie into Virginia Open Carry?
A. The legal reasoning given would also apply to any other state agency
B. Your point?
C. I'm well aware that not everyone who carries has a CHP. However, some people who OC still have a CHP for other reasons, or (like myself) like to have the option to switch between the two.

Note that I didn't say that someone with a CHP had to conceal, only that their carry couldn't be restricted. It would be like the GA building, were you would need a CHP to carry the firearm, but you aren't required to actually carry it concealed.

The relevant part of his opinion, which (if you look at the footnotes) would also apply to other state agencies besides UVa:
Second, a regulation has the force of law, whereas a policy does not. 17 DiGiacinto establishes
that a University has the authority to promulgate regulations restricting firearms inside certain buildings.
As with regulations, the authority conferred by the General Assembly upon the Board of Visitors of the
University includes the authority to create policies governing buildings at the University.18 Unless a
policy collides with a law or regulation, a policy may be enforced by the University.

With respect to the general right of "open carry," the University may develop a policy that
restricts the right of open carry within certain buildings. Prior opinions of this office have recognized the
right, tied to the Second Amendment, to openly carry a firearm. 19 This right to openly carry, like the
Second Amendment right generally, may be limited in "sensitive places" like "schools and government
buildings.,,2o In other words, the right to bear arms does not include an unqualified right to openly carry a
firearm in a sensitive place or certain government buildings. No statute or regulation specifically
addresses the right to openly carry a firearm. Therefore, the University, which is vested with the authority
to promulgate and enforce policies governing its buildings, may enforce this policy. University officials
may request that persons who openly carry in buildings covered by the policy abide by the policy. If
these persons refuse to follow it, and also refuse to leave, they may be charged with trespass.


Unlike open carry, there is an additional statutory overlay that addresses persons who have
received a concealed carry permit. Section] 8.2-308(0) provides that "[t]he granting of a concealed
handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or
in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law[.]"21 A prior opinion of this Office
concluded that "[t]he clear intent of the General Assembly is to allow concealed handgun permit holders
to carry handguns only in areas where it has not specifically prohibited the carrying of handguns.,,22
Where the possession of a handgun is prohibited by law, persons with a concealed carry weapon may not
bring their weapons to such locations.23
In DiGiacinto, George Mason University promulgated a
regulation, which has the force of law, prohibiting a person from carrying a firearm in certain buildings.
Therefore, persons with concealed carry permits could not bring them into the specified buildings because
doing so under this regulation was "otherwise prohibited by law." The University of Virginia's policy, in
contrast, is not a regulation and, therefore, does not have the force of law. Consequently, the policy does
not fall within the terms of the exception contemplated in § 18.2-308(0). Under § 18.2-308(0), persons
with valid concealed carry permits may not, through a policy, as opposed to a regulation, be prohibited
from exercising their right to carry a concealed handgun.
To prevent persons who have concealed carry
permits from bringing them into University or Medical Center buildings, the University would need to
promulgate a regulation tailored to that effect.
Note the parts that I bolded. While he says that they could promulgate a policy against open carry, such policy would not be a regulation and would not have the force of law.

Additionally, I think that Cuccinelli made a serious oversight in citing 18.2-308(O) as only allowing concealed carry. The text of 18.2-308(O) only refers to the possession of a handgun, not the specifics of the mode of carry. Therefore, it should not make a difference whether a CHP holder conceals or openly carries, as the CHP acts as an authorization to carry where not otherwise prohibited by law.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
A. The legal reasoning given would also apply to any other state agency
B. Your point?
My point is simple. It is a defense, not the law and shouldn't becited as such.

C. I'm well aware that not everyone who carries has a CHP. However, some people who OC still have a CHP for other reasons, or (like myself) like to have the option to switch between the two.

Note that I didn't say that someone with a CHP had to conceal, only that their carry couldn't be restricted. It would be like the GA building, were you would need a CHP to carry the firearm, but you aren't required to actually carry it concealed.

That's true but this an OC board and as much as the CHiPpers would like it to be a "Get a CHP so you can OC and play Dress Up, it isn't!

trap3-1.jpg
 
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Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
State agencies are not included in § 15.2-915 Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

Also Rules do not a Regulation make - they are very different animals.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
State agencies are not included in § 15.2-915 Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

Also Rules do not a Regulation make - they are very different animals.

OK, why are we talking about preemption? How about the good old Constitution of the Commonwealth of Virginia, Article I, section 13

Do we have a volunteer to research and fund this position through the courts?

PS - Please don't lose such a case.
 

stickslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Messages
181
Location
Woodbridge
yesterday morning, 2/14/2012, my son had to go to the unemployment office to pick up some tax papers. I went with him for support and to help dealing with the runaround we expected to have there. So off we went. I was wearing my Springfield, EMP (9mm 1911 with chrome slide and black frame) in a regular holster on the right side. Open carry as a almost always do. We got there started the process and within about 1 minute the security guard walked up to me and ask to talk. We stepped out the door and he ask if he could see my ID. I very politely ask why he wanted my id card, i had done nothing wrong, was bothering no-one nor being any problem. He mentioned that they did not allow weapons of any kind in the office. I politely informed him that being a state office, "Virginia Employment Commission" it was illegal and against state law for them to ban weapons on their site. He said that he would get the " security manager". As i was helping my son obtain his form the "manager" arrived and informed me that it was illegal to carry a weapon into any state office. I informed him that i do it all the time at DMV and State law prohibits them from banning weapons except for Courts and ask for him to show me the law, instructions, etc that stated that policy. Again i went through explaining to him the real law. He then as if i would just wait outside. I said no, i was helping my son with his problem. If he liked he could call the police and they would straighten out the problem. He left "to make some phone calls". as he left i mentioned that if he called the state Attorney General's office they would give him the correct data. Needless to say we continued with our business as planned. During the entire time every one was very civil, no shouting no bullying etc. A moderate number of people were sitting there doing business and all looked on, smiling at times and at times The security guard was very polite and understanding, never got the "i am security, you do as i say for now" attitude with me. I got the feeling that he felt between to hard spots while this was going on. Just as we were finishing our business, the "Security Manager" came back to the front desk where we were to talk to another worker and never uttered a word to us. We left without incident and when we got home my son was explaining it to his fiancee and they thought it was very interesting. Now if i had become belligerent, yelling and defensive things might have turned out different and they may not have learned something as they apparently did that day.

Great story wolf. Good on you!
 
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