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What type of ammo do you carry and why

MAC702

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The issue of overpenetration is more and more being recognized as an unnecessary concern. It's overshadowed by a much larger one. Just think how much "overpenetration" one gets with all those rounds that miss. Most handgun bullets don't have a lot of energy left after passing through the full thickness of a human body. All too often there are lots of rounds fired that miss the target and then go off to cause collateral damage. Those that do hit are rarely the cause of a problem unless they go through a hand or something as "thin". That is just about the same thing as a "miss". The bigger issue is getting ENOUGH penetration to reach vital organs. With Rifle Rounds it's a whole different story.

So the .45 ACP with FMJ does a pretty decent job at giving you the best of both worlds, as do many other loads and bullet styles.

I can't disagree with you! There are dead FBI agents from the Miami shootout who won't disagree with you!

I was replying to the guy who questioned FMJ for a .45, as if it was not an appropriate option, usually because of the "overpenetration" of "non-expanding" bullets.
 
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deepdiver

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Hydroshock, silver tip, +P.... ok guys help me out I am not a ballistics expert and I get lost in a lot of this stuff I have a simple question for all of you, what do you carry for self defense and why. I am going through all of my ammo right now and am trying to figure out what is the right bullet for me. I have always been a big fan of shooting heavier grain bullets with the philosophy of hit em with the biggest round possible you feel comfortable with to put them down fast, but after a recent trip to the range and shooting some lower grain "self defense ammo" I am thinking about changing my way of thinking. I shot better groups and got back on target faster with the lower grain they really impressed me and I do not think your average want to be slim shady is going to notice a difference between 165 grains and 180. So my question is what grain and type of ammo do you carry for self defense and why. I understand the difference between FMJ and HP and will be carrying HP for self defense

Thanks gang

You don't state what handgun you are using. And yes, IMO, it matters. Some rounds are great in full size guns but not a particularly good choice in short barreled firearms. For example, some JHP don't expand consistently out of short barreled firearms and several +P rounds give extra recoil and cost but add nothing to short barrel velocity.

For. 45acp I use Wiinchester Ranger RJ45T. Federal HST performs similarly for similar cost but was not readily available when I was ready to buy a case of SD ammo. I chose that because it works well in 3, 4 & 5" barrels, all of which I carry depending, showing consistent expansion in testing in each of the sidearms according to tests both amateur and pro. It feeds as well as FMJ, at least in my guns. It is affordable. Lastly, it has identical POI out of my carry guns as practice, ie cheaper, FMJ ammo and has similar recoil so I don't need to blow through hundreds of rounds and the extra $ to practice with it once I perform function testing on a new firearm.
 

ghosthunter

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Jun 8, 2008
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I dont think the average joe gives it any thought. Someone breaks in they get shot. I have never heard type of loads argued on the street . Just here.

Me I buy the cheapest 9mm I can find and practice + carry it. When they ask why I used that load? I would say it was what was on sale.

In the house it is a Judge with PDX self defense .410 loads. Why they ask? So they dont leave my home when I pop at the BG.

Off topic blurp; Shots were fired tonight at 7 pm on the corner of my street. I went out to see what was up. Quiet, 10min later the PD is there street blocked. shell casings on the center line. NO one around.
 
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BigDave

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I have and likely others on this board have taken a class from Massad on Judicious Use Of Deadly Force.
My notes and if my memory does not fail me, Mass was discussing the issues of reloads along the lines of carrying ammo with names that could be referred to as cop killers and weapons names that relate to something more deadly then it could possibly be. This was discussed in relationship to how jurors may relate to the incident they are being asked to judge. In the context it was given had another issue if additional ammunition was needed for forensic testing and the need for the supplied ammo to come from "clean hands" other words from someone that had not interest in the outcome of the testing ie the manufacture. I am of the understanding that major manufactures maintain a certain amount of each lot that could be used for this testing.

Even though there is no legal aspect to my knowledge that it would be a determining factor to finding one guilty or not but it does come down to personal opinions.
Lets not forget Josh's case in Vancouver where the majority on the jury were gun owners and their opinions on open carry convicted him.

Oh and I carry Speer Gold Dot in 40 S&W 165gr and works very well in my XD40SC
 
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amlevin

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Feb 16, 2007
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North of Seattle, Washington, USA
You'll have to explain that one to me. I was a physics major so don't spare me the details.

It's simple. With bigger loads in a short barrel the bullet leaves the barrel before the full energy of the charge can be utilized. Rather than create more "push" on the bullet it merely creates a bigger fireball and resulting noise.

As for recoil, the calculation for felt recoil uses bullet weight, powder weight, velocity, and weight of firearm. If the powder weight increases, even though the velocity doesn't , the recoil is still increased due to the "rocket motor effect of the bigger flame leaving the barrel.

Here's a handy calculator for Recoil:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp
 

deepdiver

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Southeast, Missouri, USA
It's simple. With bigger loads in a short barrel the bullet leaves the barrel before the full energy of the charge can be utilized. Rather than create more "push" on the bullet it merely creates a bigger fireball and resulting noise.

As for recoil, the calculation for felt recoil uses bullet weight, powder weight, velocity, and weight of firearm. If the powder weight increases, even though the velocity doesn't , the recoil is still increased due to the "rocket motor effect of the bigger flame leaving the barrel.

Here's a handy calculator for Recoil:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp
Better explained than I would have done. Thank you!
 

MAC702

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It's simple. With bigger loads in a short barrel the bullet leaves the barrel before the full energy of the charge can be utilized. Rather than create more "push" on the bullet it merely creates a bigger fireball and resulting noise.

As for recoil, the calculation for felt recoil uses bullet weight, powder weight, velocity, and weight of firearm. If the powder weight increases, even though the velocity doesn't , the recoil is still increased due to the "rocket motor effect of the bigger flame leaving the barrel.

Here's a handy calculator for Recoil:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

I can only agree that the law of diminishing returns is in full effect. But there ARE returns. Only after acknowledging this can you then decide if they are worth the extra recoil and blast.

You can Google all the velocity reports you want, but I'll give you just one, written by Skeeter Skelton: http://www.darkcanyon.net/The Long & Short Of Sixgun Barrels.htm

In this example, a .38 Special from a 2" barrel makes 690 fps. A .357 Magnum from a 2" bbl makes 928 - 1093 fps (he tested two brands). All used a 158-gr bullet.

Buffalo Bore makes a .38 Special +P+ load designed to use the short brass but be fired in 2" .357 Magnum revolvers. Using .38 Special brass, its 158-grain bullet moves at 1040 fps from a 2" revolver barrel: http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=108

There ARE significant returns, if you are willing to put up with the accelerated rate of additional blast.
 

deepdiver

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I can only agree that the law of diminishing returns is in full effect. But there ARE returns. Only after acknowledging this can you then decide if they are worth the extra recoil and blast.
SNIP
In this example, a .38 Special
SNIP
There ARE significant returns, if you are willing to put up with the accelerated rate of additional blast.
I didn't see anyone say there are never velocity advantages with a +P in a short barrel. This started with my saying "several" +P loads give no advantage (should have said significant advantage) in velocity in short barrelled guns.

My understanding is that the 38 special and derivatives are not a very good cartridge from which to generalize on this topic (I'm sure someone will be along to correct me if I am wrong on this) being that it was designed as a black powder cartridge leaving lots of extra room with modern powders in the case which for various reasons translates into more effective use of +P loadings even in short barrel revolvers. I don't recall reading of any 38+P cartridges that even in short barrelled revolvers didn't expand and didn't offer a better ballistics than 38 special although I am sure there must be some. FWIW, when I get around to acquiring a. 38+P snubby, I'll carry +P rounds in it.

There are +P cartridges for 45 and 9mm that offer little to no advantage in velocity in short barrels and which in some cases propel bullets that require the higher velocities to expand effectively so do not reliablly expand out of the short barrels. That is why you see cartridges such as the Speer Gold Dot for Short Barrels acknowledging this issue. YMMV and your research may lead to different conclusions. I make no claim to being a ballistics expert. Heck, I haven't even gotten around to start reloading.

My ammo choice is based not on generalities but by reading specific ammo tests in my speciific firearms and cross-referencing them to find what works consistently (POI, reliable expansion, consistent recoil), is affordable for me and offers the best ballistics within those parameters. Anyone else's caliiber or sidearm choice may lead to a different conclusion. Just like there isn't one sidearm choice that works for everyone, there isnn't one ammo choice that works for all sidearms of a given caliber.
 

USMC1911

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Just as important as what type, is how many you carry. I agree with a previous poster, carring 50 armor piercing black talons in a dragon slayer/desert eagle 50 cal will be looked at as over kill for self defense. I carry a 1911 clone (cost effective), in condition one, I have one mag w/ 7 rounds of FMJ 230 gr. .45 (8 total). I carry no extra mags/ammo/knife/multi tool/anything. My weapon is Solly for self defense.
 

amlevin

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I agree with a previous poster, carring 50 armor piercing black talons in a dragon slayer/desert eagle 50 cal will be looked at as over kill for self defense.

Depends on what neighborhood you live in or where you travel. For some, you may be "under-armed";)

As for the so called "armor piercing" qualities of Black Talon ammo, here's some info that indicates it's no better than "conventional" ammo:

The bullet was designed in 1991 under the supervision of Alan Corzine, who at that time was VP of research and development for Winchester.[5] The round quickly developed a reputation as a very effective expanding bullet. The alleged armor-piercing notion is urban legend, and was a result of media hyperbole—rather than test or field data from actual shootings considering the short time it was on the market. Col Leonard J. Supenski of the Baltimore County police department said "It has the stopping power that police officers need and it is less likely to ricochet or go through the bad guy,"[2] something that could be said of any reliably expanding hollow-point. Despite its unique design, the Black Talon was found to be comparable in performance to conventional hollow-points. Black Talon pistol loads are not loaded to higher working pressures or higher velocities "+P" loadings for like and different calibers.
The first shooting which brought critical media attention to Black Talon was by Gian Luigi Ferri, who used Black Talon and other ammunition to shoot 15 people at a San Francisco law office in 1993; nine of whom died. Dr. Boyd Stevens, the San Francisco Medical Examiner who performed the autopsies, later reported at the 1994 International Wound Ballistics Association's conference in Sacramento that the wound trauma caused by Black Talons was unremarkable and that all victims died due to penetration of a vital structure.[6]

(from Wikipedia so that the copyright police are happy)
 

jbone

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Jun 4, 2008
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WA
While no particular reason, Magtech 124gr hollow point.
 

MainelyGlock

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Feb 19, 2012
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Portland, ME
My carry guns are all chambered in .40S&W, and I use 190-grain Winchester PDX1 hollow points. Like the .40S&W round itself, these were designed by the FBI, for the FBI for maximum stopping power. I did a fair amount of reading before choosing the hollow points to carry, and these seems to be the highest rated and most favored. Never had any problems with firing them in either of my Glocks or Sig, either.
 

SovereignAxe

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several +P rounds give extra recoil and cost but add nothing to short barrel velocity.

You'll have to explain that one to me. I was a physics major so don't spare me the details.

I didn't like any of the answers to this, so I thought I'd add my own.

I think what deepdiver is saying is that some of the +P loads use more powder, but don't necessarily burn any faster-at least not fast enough to finish burning before the bullet leaves the barrel.

Think of it this way (all figures are made up, but the theory is real). Say you have a normal pressure load, we'll call it load A, that burns up completely just before the bullet leaves a 5" barrel. Take load A and put it in a handgun with a 3" barrel and you've got some sparks coming out of the barrel because the bullet is out before the powder is finished burning. No big deal, you just get decreased muzzle veloctiy, which is to be expected.

Now take load A and add more powder to the cartridge to make a +P load, which we'll call A+1. It works great out of a 5" barrel because it's still causing the bullet to accelerate as it exits the barrel
because it's still burning. But fire it out of a 3" barrel and you're wasting even more powder because a good portion is burning past the muzzle. You may have more muzzle velocity with A+1 than with A out of the 3" barrel, but the gain will be minimal, as you're wasting most of the powder.

Now take load A and instead of just shoving more powder into the cartridge and making A+1, you throw out load A and put in a faster burning powder, which we'll call load B. Load B is a +P load, but it burns faster-it burns up completely just before the bullet reaches the end of a 3" barrel. Load B will probably have a more brisk recoil than A+1, but it'll make much better use of the shorter barrel, and give much better velocity gains out of a 3" barrel than with load A+1.
 
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deepdiver

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I didn't like any of the answers to this, so I thought I'd add my own.
Another good expansion/explanation of what I said better than I said it. Also, extrapolating your points to the 38+P in a snubby vs say 45acp +P in a short barrelled semi-auto situation rounds out that matter better as well.

But ya'll know, we coulda saved a lot of time if ya'll would've just assumed what I said was correct without any 'splainin'. :p
 
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