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What type of ammo do you carry and why

p85-GSXwheelman

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Hydra-shok +p's 147gr. 9mm....little more sass to them, but my EDC is a ruger p85 MKII, I barely notice a difference with the 4 1/2" barrel.
 

p85-GSXwheelman

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And omg...really guys? I OC and CC....and what data do you need to support the common sense idea that OC'ing can make you a primary target?! So a BG walks in to rob the place....and sees you strapped up....you think he's gunna automatically consider you a tertiary threat to his objective?
 

gogodawgs

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And omg...really guys? I OC and CC....and what data do you need to support the common sense idea that OC'ing can make you a primary target?! So a BG walks in to rob the place....and sees you strapped up....you think he's gunna automatically consider you a tertiary threat to his objective?

Can you cite me one time that on OCer has been shot first in the commission of a crime? (And please excuse uniformed police/security)

I am not saying that it can't or won't happen, but even if it does the statistical probability will still be something like 0.0000000001%
 

yz9890

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Louisville, KY
I usually CC but not because I'm a carry snob. I do it because I'm lazy and a crappy patriot. I try to find a few opportunities a year to support a local OC push though. I think it's important for the public to see responsible people among them armed. And a CC snob should be thrilled to death if he thinks BG's target OC's first.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Can you cite me one time that on OCer has been shot first in the commission of a crime? (And please excuse uniformed police/security)

I am not saying that it can't or won't happen, but even if it does the statistical probability will still be something like 0.0000000001%

I just had this discussion with a guy who thinks OC is stupid the other day. He wants the element of surprise.

He thinks I'll be a target. I told him do you really think some punk is going to search me out of the hundreds of customers at Wal-mart before robbing the teller?

People also don't seem to understand the mindset of those engaged in this activity they know it has to be in and out, so if anybody is targeted it won't be people in plain clothes. With the amount of adrenaline in their system their minds are focused on the task at hand, sort of like the tunnel vision syndrome cops get when on a high speed chase, so if anybody is to be a target it would be a cop or a Security Guard but more than likely they won't attack them either unless it is a well planned heist, which most are not.

And to top it off several others I personally know and myself have seen the deterring effect of OC.
 
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amlevin

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North of Seattle, Washington, USA
You got me. However, my basic premise still stands. A prosecutor could still pull an expert witness in ballistics to somehow portray me as a bad guy. If I am using the same ammo as my local PD, my defense attorney (if determined a benefit) could call a local PD to the stand or submit into evidence an affidavit of what the local PD uses which matches what I use.

I am not saying this has happened, nor that it will. I have not done the research. However, I personally would feel better knowing that I have something that could help back me up.

Can you show one case where this happened in WA State? Remember, if someone is found to have acted in SD and is acquitted in any prosecution, the State pays all his costs. This is enough of a "brake" on that so called "zealous Prosecutor" that it's rare where they have had to pay.

Also remember that Police Ammo is selected for it's ability to STOP the threat. It is usually the most deadly, while still reliable, ammo available.

Lastly, the law allows for the use of Deadly Force in Self Defense. It doesn't limit one to a specific manner in which that force can be applied. If you have to defend yourself you have the right to use the biggest gun with the most deadly ammo that fits in it. The only thing that matters is that you are acting out of a fear for your life, in self defense. This "Use whatever the Police Use" is another myth perpetuated by Massad Ayoob. Just like his "don't carry reloads" statement, he can't seem to back up the claim.
 

slapmonkay

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You got me. However, my basic premise still stands. A prosecutor could still pull an expert witness in ballistics to somehow portray me as a bad guy. If I am using the same ammo as my local PD, my defense attorney (if determined a benefit) could call a local PD to the stand or submit into evidence an affidavit of what the local PD uses which matches what I use.

I am not saying this has happened, nor that it will. I have not done the research. However, I personally would feel better knowing that I have something that could help back me up.

Can you show one case where this happened in WA State? Remember, if someone is found to have acted in SD and is acquitted in any prosecution, the State pays all his costs. This is enough of a "brake" on that so called "zealous Prosecutor" that it's rare where they have had to pay.

Also remember that Police Ammo is selected for it's ability to STOP the threat. It is usually the most deadly, while still reliable, ammo available.

Lastly, the law allows for the use of Deadly Force in Self Defense. It doesn't limit one to a specific manner in which that force can be applied. If you have to defend yourself you have the right to use the biggest gun with the most deadly ammo that fits in it. The only thing that matters is that you are acting out of a fear for your life, in self defense. This "Use whatever the Police Use" is another myth perpetuated by Massad Ayoob. Just like his "don't carry reloads" statement, he can't seem to back up the claim.

I am not arguing any of your points. In fact, I agree that the law does not say how you can defend yourself so long as the force is reasonably used. I am simply providing a senerio in which helped me make my decision to carry what my local PD uses.

I further clerified in my last post that 'I am not saying this has happened, nor that it will. I have not done the research.' Even if it has never happened, I still feel better knowing that if I was ever put into the over zealous prosecutor position that wanted to try excessive force due to ammo used, I have the backing of using local PD ammunition.

I believe everything I stated in my last post (quoted above) is 100% accurate, do you say otherwise?

As for use of reloads, here is a cite link with court cases where reloads and question of use were involved (from massad ayoob himself): http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2129976&postcount=140
 
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MAC702

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Whitney

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Poulsbo, Kitsap County, Washington, USA
Training vs Fighting

Hydroshock, silver tip, +P.... ok guys help me out I am not a ballistics expert and I get lost in a lot of this stuff I have a simple question for all of you, what do you carry for self defense and why. I am going through all of my ammo right now and am trying to figure out what is the right bullet for me. I have always been a big fan of shooting heavier grain bullets with the philosophy of hit em with the biggest round possible you feel comfortable with to put them down fast, but after a recent trip to the range and shooting some lower grain "self defense ammo" I am thinking about changing my way of thinking. I shot better groups and got back on target faster with the lower grain they really impressed me and I do not think your average want to be slim shady is going to notice a difference between 165 grains and 180. So my question is what grain and type of ammo do you carry for self defense and why. I understand the difference between FMJ and HP and will be carrying HP for self defense

Thanks gang

There is a lot of good information in this thread relegated to each persons preference, and as such diverse as each individual. At the risk of sounding condescending perhaps you should ask a different question. You know already how different ammunition effects your shooting so my question to you would be; can you afford to train like you fight?

I have taken up reloading and have had very sound advice from members on this forum with regard to the same. Reloading greatly reduces my cost per cartridge and gives me latitude to develop the characteristics I desire in a self defense round. I acknowledge this method is not for everyone. My simple answer to your question, I train to fight and use the load best suited for my firearm and my shooting techniques. I cannot afford to purchase this ammunition as a commercially made product, and maintain proficiency, so I make my own. I would be willing to meet up for coffee for further discussion if you like. I hope this doesn't come off sounding smarmy.

~Whitney
 

MAC702

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FMJ for SD, really?

For a .45? Why not? Probably less risk of overpenetration than some hollowpoints out of a .357 Sig, 10mm, or .357 Magnum, etc.

Ultra-reliable.

I carry FMJ in my everyday-carry .45 as well. RELOADS, at that!
 
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amlevin

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As for use of reloads, here is a cite link with court cases where reloads and question of use were involved (from massad ayoob himself): http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2129976&postcount=140

Your cite actually proved my position. Three of the four cited incidents or cases didn't Self Defense. In the fourth the person still won an acquittal.

Again my challenge. Show a case where the use of reloads was either the reason one was charged or was instrumental in getting a conviction in a Self Defense case.

The same argument could be used against someone driving a Hummer and hitting a pedestrian. "Why were you driving such a huge vehicle? Wouldn't a Geo Metro have been adequate?"

FWIW, one could easily make the case, with numerous experts verifying, that "Handloads and Reloads" don't even measure up to the available "Self Defense" ammo available today. Many of the exotic bullets that are available only on Factory Loaded Ammo sold for self defense.
 
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amlevin

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Probably less risk of overpenetration

The issue of overpenetration is more and more being recognized as an unnecessary concern. It's overshadowed by a much larger one. Just think how much "overpenetration" one gets with all those rounds that miss. Most handgun bullets don't have a lot of energy left after passing through the full thickness of a human body. All too often there are lots of rounds fired that miss the target and then go off to cause collateral damage. Those that do hit are rarely the cause of a problem unless they go through a hand or something as "thin". That is just about the same thing as a "miss". The bigger issue is getting ENOUGH penetration to reach vital organs. With Rifle Rounds it's a whole different story.
 

slapmonkay

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Your cite actually proved my position. Three of the four cited incidents or cases didn't Self Defense. In the fourth the person still won an acquittal.

Again my challenge. Show a case where the use of reloads was either the reason one was charged or was instrumental in getting a conviction in a Self Defense case.

The same argument could be used against someone driving a Hummer and hitting a pedestrian. "Why were you driving such a huge vehicle? Wouldn't a Geo Metro have been adequate?"

FWIW, one could easily make the case, with numerous experts verifying, that "Handloads and Reloads" don't even measure up to the available "Self Defense" ammo available today. Many of the exotic bullets that are available only on Factory Loaded Ammo sold for self defense.

my point was not to say you will get convicted, but rather that it could cause extra burden and explanation. I personally don't want to deal with that worry if I am ever put in that position. The fact that there are cases that bring the ammunition into question/concern supports my point and concerns.
 

amlevin

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North of Seattle, Washington, USA
my point was not to say you will get convicted, but rather that it could cause extra burden and explanation. I personally don't want to deal with that worry if I am ever put in that position. The fact that there are cases that bring the ammunition into question/concern supports my point and concerns.

I'd spend more time on learning the law regarding Self Defense, Practicing my skills, and worry less about getting prosecuted or sued. If you don't break the law there's no prosecution. As for any Civil Suit, that could happen even if your actions were totally legal. You could get sued for carrying a black gun if the Plaintiff thought it was too intimidating and thought you should be carrying a silver one.

The only burden you will be faced with when shooting someone will be answering only the questions. "Were you in fear for your life or that of another?" "Was a Felony about to be committed on you or another?". If your answer is yes and the evidence supports, there'll be no "extra burden".

Of course one can get so tangled up in their underwear over things like this they end up getting killed due to their hesitation.
 

MAC702

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my point was not to say you will get convicted, but rather that it could cause extra burden and explanation. I personally don't want to deal with that worry if I am ever put in that position. ...

If the other lawyer is trying to use my ammunition against me, I'd say that's a pretty good sign he's getting desperate.
 
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