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Thread: CC in non-allowed places

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    CC in non-allowed places

    I carry daily. I have a small LCP in my hip pocket. Many times I forget it is there. Lets say, I walk into a restricted business (place not allowing weapons of any kind) not thinking about having my gun in my pocket and, during my visit to whatever establishment/business, a robber comes in and starts shooting up the place and maybe shoots another customer or worker, I draw my weapon and shoot back. Does anyone have any experience to know what would happen if I used my weapon to protect myself or other in a place I am not allowed to conceal carry?

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    Interesting question.
    Proud Veteran ~ U.S. Army / Army Reserve

    Mississippi State Guard ~ Honorably Retired


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    Read all about it in the Wisconsin shooting of shotgun wielding perps in a posted Aldi's. should answer all your questions.

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    The law and how it's treated in other states has no bearing on how it is treated here in NM.

    In the one case I know of that occured in Albq, the individual was carrying where alcohol was sold [before I got the law changed], he was licensed to carry concealed, he used his firearm to defend a life - taking the life of the attacker. No charges were filed against the person that was illegally carrying [a felony].

    However, I am aware of two instances where someone caught carrying "concealed" [or attempting to conceal in both cases] where the firearms we not used that charges were filed and they were both found guilty of a felony - losing their right to carry. Be very aware of this and DO NOT CARRY WHERE PROHIBITED.

    Remember, it is your responsibility to know where you can't carry, and your responsibility to be aware that you are carrying at all times. If you're not sure where you can carry I suggest you check www.handgunlaw.us or www.nm-ccw.com

    "I forgot" won't get you off the hook.

    Stay Safe.

    Steve Aikens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rxman View Post
    Read all about it in the Wisconsin shooting of shotgun wielding perps in a posted Aldi's. should answer all your questions.
    I'm not sure of the relevance of that case. In WI signs seem to have the weight of law and they chose to not charge him.

    In NM signs do not have the same weight of law- unless it's a state-prohibited location, the worst that can happen is you are charged with simple trespass.

    In a private non-state prohibited location, it would be curious to see what would happen. If it's a good shoot will the owner charge you with trespass? What's really the point in doing that? If it's a state-prohibited location I can see the stronger possibility of facing those charges separately regardless of the good shoot, especially if the location is a felony violation.

    Interesting nonetheless.

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    I understand Mr Aikens and respect your comments since you are an expert on the NM laws. And thank you for your response. Therefore my choices, as I see them, are to 1) not patronize the places it is unlawful to carry, 2) leave my weapon in my vehicle all the time or 3) try to remember and make sure I remove my weapon anytime I enter one of these places and hope like heck I never need it. With choices 2 and 3 I had better find a really good lock-box for my vehicle and also hope it never gets stolen. You know the law says we can but, puts so many restriction on us that I sometimes wonder if it is all worth it. Granted that ONE time it would definitely be worth it but other times a really big hassle.

    One more question for you Mr. Aikens. If I enter one of these places and do leave my weapon in my vehicle or at home is this establishment then liable for my safety and well being?

    Since this is a forum, what do the rest of you do? Do you remember to remove your weapon every time you enter one of these places or do you just not go where you can't carry?

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    There was some question in the Wisconsin shooting of the actual legality of the signs. WI State Statutes actually define the signage and locations (5"x7" and posted on all entry and exit doors). The sign in question might not have been of legal size and was posted on a side window.

    This might explain why the shooter was not charged.

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    Then theres places like the Circle K on san antonio by wyoming.They have a no firearms sign posted.Its posted above the beer cooler which is already 20 feet into the store.No other signage by the door or front glass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by awnuts View Post
    Then theres places like the Circle K on san antonio by wyoming.They have a no firearms sign posted.Its posted above the beer cooler which is already 20 feet into the store.No other signage by the door or front glass.
    This seems to be an area that needs further clarification and specificity. It is rather lacking if you look at the details.

    Here is the section of the administrative code:

    10.8.2.27 PROHIBITING THE CARRYING OF CONCEALED HANDGUNS ON PRIVATE PROPERTY: Pursuant to Subsection C of NMSA 1978 Section 29-19-12, any person lawfully in possession of private property may prohibit the carrying of concealed handguns on such private property by posting notice in accordance with NMSA 1978 Section 30-14-6 or by verbally notifying persons entering upon the property.

    [10.8.2.27 NMAC - N, 11-26-03]

    If you then look at the statutes that points to, you see this:

    29-19-12. Rules; department to administer; reciprocal agreements with other states.
    The department shall promulgate rules necessary to implement the provisions of the Concealed Handgun Carry Act. The rules shall include:
    C. provision of authority for a private property owner to disallow the carrying of a concealed handgun on the owner's property;

    and

    30-14-6. No trespassing notice; sign contents; posting; requirement; prescribing a penalty for wrongful posting of public lands.

    A. The owner, lessee or person lawfully in possession of real property in New Mexico, except property owned by the state or federal government, desiring to prevent trespass or entry onto the real property shall post notices parallel to and along the exterior boundaries of the property to be posted, at each roadway or other way of access in conspicuous places, and if the property is not fenced, such notices shall be posted every five hundred feet along the exterior boundaries of such land.

    B. The notices posted shall prohibit all persons from trespassing or entering upon the property, without permission of the owner, lessee, person in lawful possession or his agent. The notices shall:

    (1) be printed legibly in English;

    (2) be at least one hundred forty-four square inches in size;

    (3) contain the name and address of the person under whose authority the property is posted or the name and address of the person who is authorized to grant permission to enter the property;

    (4) be placed at each roadway or apparent way of access onto the property, in addition to the posting of the boundaries; and

    (5) where applicable, state any specific prohibition that the posting is directed against, such as "no trespassing," "no hunting," "no fishing," "no digging" or any other specific prohibition.

    C. Any person who posts public lands contrary to state or federal law or regualtion [regulation] is guilty of a petty misdemeanor.

    Therefore you can see that although they tried to tie no-firearms sign posting back into the to-trespassing sign posting, they missed the boat because the statute only provides guidelines for posting of property along roadways and boundaries. Do you ever see a no-firearm sign which meets all the above requirements? All I've ever seen is small gun-buster pictures- but according to the word of the law, there are other requirements such as size and ownership details. A standard 8x11 sheet of paper does not meet the size requirements.

    There are no references to building entrances or any other locations whatsoever.

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    NMGoose- no, stores/other places are not liable for your safety, specifically because they prohibit firearms. That doesn't mean you can't sue if something happens, of course.

    I try to avoid prohibited locations but do have a safe installed in my truck- not just a lock box with a cable although we do have one of those for my wife's truck. If I need to go into one of those places I always secure the gun in the safe.

    If it is a state-prohibited location and a crime to enter while carrying, I do not carry inside. In my opinion the penalty isn't worth the risk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by awnuts View Post
    Then theres places like the Circle K on san antonio by wyoming.They have a no firearms sign posted.Its posted above the beer cooler which is already 20 feet into the store.No other signage by the door or front glass.
    That sign means nothing and unless the owner somehow manages to see your concealed weapon he may ask you to leave and you must do so unless you want to be charged with trespass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMGoose View Post
    One more question for you Mr. Aikens. If I enter one of these places and do leave my weapon in my vehicle or at home is this establishment then liable for my safety and well being?
    As noted - no, they are not. That specifically is the problem. They have the authority to prevent you from entering with your firearm yet do not take the responsibility for your safety. This has been challenged in NM and the property owner [a bar] was held not liable.

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    I too have noticed that many places that supposedly do not allow weapons in their establishment DO NOT have any signs posted at or on the front door where the public generally enters. They will have a sign of some kind taped on the cash register or above a counter or on a wall behind a counter inside. Granted I suppose a person is obligated to comply with that but, it is not a legally posted sign and it is too late once you are already inside. Also it may be an 8,1/2 x 11 but the wording is so small you cannot read it from a distance.

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    "This has been challenged in NM and the property owner [a bar] was held not liable." -- steveaikens

    The law needs to be changed: Someone slips on my home's sidewalk, gets hurt and sues me for thousands of $$ -- I'm liable for their injuries, pain & suffering, etc..

    Someone in a store gets KILLED yet the store/property-owner/employer is not liable.

    That's just plain wrong.
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 02-17-2012 at 05:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMGoose View Post
    I too have noticed that many places that supposedly do not allow weapons in their establishment DO NOT have any signs posted at or on the front door where the public generally enters. They will have a sign of some kind taped on the cash register or above a counter or on a wall behind a counter inside. Granted I suppose a person is obligated to comply with that but, it is not a legally posted sign and it is too late once you are already inside. Also it may be an 8,1/2 x 11 but the wording is so small you cannot read it from a distance.
    You've got to be very careful. Do not assume that a sign is illegal in the way it is posted. My previous post was intended to point out the lack of specifics in the statute about the posting of signs in/on buildings and establishments, not to imply that you can ignore posted signs.

    It is better to be safe than sorry. Just because it does not specify that an "entrance" must be posted, does not mean that a sign inside is not properly posted either. And I wouldn't feel safe assuming that just because it doesn't meet the size requirements as spelled out in the trespass sign requirements, that you would have nothing to worry about. Always err on the side of caution.

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    Quasi-legal minds here can clarify with, perhaps the Latin phrase, but there's a legal concept that states that committing a lesser crime to prevent a major crime is allowable in some circumstances. IANAL

    For example, say you drove up on a sidewalk to avoid hitting a Ped, or ran over a guy trying to carjack someone. How -any- law or concept is applied depends heavily on how the prosecutor operates in your area, what time of year it is (election time?) and other factors.

    If you are defending your -own- life it's a no-choice kind of thing. Generally, you can get out of any place when you see bad stuff brewing. So, I'd clear out and be a good witness even sooner than normal if I discovered I was in a prohibited zone.

    FWIW
    =====
    Edit to add: In the case of a clearly good shoot, protecting, say a pregnant woman, the DA will know that the firearm is a tool, just like any object (frying pan, bar stool). It's ONLY when there's an agenda that suddenly the 'firearm' becomes "demonized" and declared an emotional threat all by itself.
    Last edited by sawah; 02-17-2012 at 07:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by castiel View Post
    That sign means nothing and unless the owner somehow manages to see your concealed weapon he may ask you to leave and you must do so unless you want to be charged with trespass.
    I just saw this. The charge would not be trespass in this case.

    I would suggest the instead of trying to minimize charges or second guess how a sign is treated, you focus on the potential consequences of getting caught with your firearm where it is prohibited. In the case noted where alcohol is sold, the charge is a fourth degree felony. If someone sees the firearm, it is not concealed - period. Open carry where alcohol is sold is a felony.

    As to where a sign is posted, there are guidelines for alcohol retailers that are guided by the Dept of Alcohol and Gaming. This sign : http://www.nm-ccw.com/images/alcoholsign.jpg - must be conspicuously posted according to those guidelines. Often they are not posted in compliance. However, if, like the Circle K noted above, there are advertisements that are clearly posted, it is not a defense to prosecution if you are caught open carrying [or failing to conceal] that the sign wasn't posted where it was supposed to be. You have the license, that means you have received the training and know places that sell alcohol are prohibited to open carry.

    All Signs do have the force of law. The one above does not apply to concealed carry licensees. Any other sign, including ghostbuster signs definately do apply to everyone carrying.

    Steve Aikens

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    Steve- the only thing specific to the actual, physical posting of signs for alcohol establishments that I could find is in the AC:

    15.11.2.10 POSTERS:

    A. Licensees shall display the following posters in full public view within the licensed premises. The director will prescribe the forms and sizes of the posters and will make copies available to all licensees:

    (1) posters giving notice the law prohibits the carrying of any operative firearm on a licensed premises;

    (2) posters warning of the dangers of drinking alcoholic beverages during pregnancy;

    (3) posters identifying areas of the licensed premises in which minors are prohibited, unless accompanied by a parent, adult spouse or legal guardian; and

    (4) posters warning of the dangers of, and penalties for, driving while intoxicated.

    B. Licensees may, with the director’s prior approval, develop and use posters of their own design that contain the same information required in this sections. Any such posters shall be valid only if bearing the director’s stamp of approval.

    [7/15/99; Recompiled 12/31/01]


    This mentions "full public view." However, it still only applies to alcohol establishments and not to general stores and other places.

    I would also argue that "full public view" is not fulfilled by a sign posted inside on an interior wall, where only people inside the store will see it. In my opinion, "full public view" means somewhere posted so as to be seen by people outside, in actual public locations. Inside the store itself is not truly a public location.

    So a question is- what is the definition of "full public view" according to the code? It says "within"- but does that mean a window or door, so as to be seen from outside when it comes to this specific poster?
    Last edited by AH.74; 02-19-2012 at 09:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveaikens View Post
    I just saw this. The charge would not be trespass in this case.

    I would suggest the instead of trying to minimize charges or second guess how a sign is treated, you focus on the potential consequences of getting caught with your firearm where it is prohibited. In the case noted where alcohol is sold, the charge is a fourth degree felony. If someone sees the firearm, it is not concealed - period. Open carry where alcohol is sold is a felony.

    As to where a sign is posted, there are guidelines for alcohol retailers that are guided by the Dept of Alcohol and Gaming. This sign : http://www.nm-ccw.com/images/alcoholsign.jpg - must be conspicuously posted according to those guidelines. Often they are not posted in compliance. However, if, like the Circle K noted above, there are advertisements that are clearly posted, it is not a defense to prosecution if you are caught open carrying [or failing to conceal] that the sign wasn't posted where it was supposed to be. You have the license, that means you have received the training and know places that sell alcohol are prohibited to open carry.

    All Signs do have the force of law. The one above does not apply to concealed carry licensees. Any other sign, including ghostbuster signs definately do apply to everyone carrying.

    Steve Aikens
    I find that interesting, I do not know NM law, and have not been in NM for several years, but To Require concealment in a place that sells alcohol is 180 from Montana, where, you can OC into a bar, with or without a license, but you cannot under any circumstance CC, even a restaurant that serves.. As I travel I can see I will have to have little summery cards for each state.

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    Interesting state to state gun laws. In NM you can carry concealed but with restriction as to where and when. Yet, hearsay, according to ATF you can OC, fully loaded anytime anywhere. However, I would imagine the exceptions might be posted areas and of course bars that serve "hard liquor". The laws are so damn confusing how can anyone understand them. Maybe you do Mr. Atkins but, for the rest of us ?????????????

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMGoose View Post
    Interesting state to state gun laws. In NM you can carry concealed but with restriction as to where and when. Yet, hearsay, according to ATF you can OC, fully loaded anytime anywhere. However, I would imagine the exceptions might be posted areas and of course bars that serve "hard liquor". The laws are so damn confusing how can anyone understand them. Maybe you do Mr. Atkins but, for the rest of us ?????????????

    Forgive me for being blunt.

    OC anytime, anywhere? No- and you can't afford to just "imagine" or listen to hearsay. There is no "might"- there is only "is" if you get my meaning. These are mistakes which could have huge impacts on the remainder of your entire life. They could put you behind bars and leave you a convicted felon, if you're not careful.

    The laws are not confusing if you take the time to read them and make sure you understand them. If you want to carry firearms, it is your responsibility to do so as fully informed as you can. If you don't understand the laws, don't carry until you do. It's really that simple.

    Have you taken a CCW course? If not, I highly recommend it just for the sake of being more familiar with the laws. Go to the NM DPS site at http://www.dps.nm.org/index.php/nm-concealed-carry/ , follow the links and read the laws- specifically under Concealed Handgun Carry Act of 2005 look for the links to the statutes and rules.

    There is no excuse for being ignorant of the laws. There are no gray areas of responsibility, IMO of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    Forgive me for being blunt.
    ................
    There is no excuse for being ignorant of the laws. There are no gray areas of responsibility, IMO of course.
    That is NOT your opinion AH. - it's the law.

    NMGoose, regardless of the state, you are REQUIRED to know the law pertaining to firearms carry, if you chose to carry - period. If there's something you're not comfortable with - DON'T CARRY until you KNOW the law.

    On top of other things I'm involved in with firearms and firearms law - I founded www.handgunlaw.us in 2006. Between Gary Slider and I, we have created the most up-to-date firearms database on the internet. We provide you information on each state, and links to the office of primary responsibility for each state with phone numbers where available, email addresses for contact to ask questions when something isn't clear to you. Use that resource. You'll notice an absence of a chat or forum on www.handgunlaw.us. That is because we don't want anyone confusing the law, confusing the folks trying their best to understand - for example, NM law - and having someone from, say, IL drop a bomb that misconstrues NM law and sets disagreements in place. All we do is accurate, confirmed and confirmable data. It's a free resource to anyone that wants to protect themselves from liability because they - like you - didn't understand.

    I strongly encourage you to use it. Remember, there are numerous violations in the law from state to state that can make you a FELON in a heartbeat - losing your right to carry.

    ADDED: I know your instructor NMGoose. There is no way on this planet that I believe for a second that Tom didn't clearly explain the law here. I would suggest you contact him if there's something that he didn't make clear to you - though I can't imagine how that could possibly be. Tom is not just an instructor - he's also a very knowledgable NRA Training Counselor, we went to school together.

    Steve Aikens
    Last edited by steveaikens; 02-26-2012 at 07:47 PM.

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    Yes, I do have my CCL and have already taken the 2 year refresher, or re-cert, whatever it is called. Anyway, yes, Tom did explain the NM laws to the best of his ability but just in my own mind I have to think and wonder "what if", it's just my nature. I hear and I read what the law says but as everyone knows, LAW is written words open to interpretation by the legal community. I am not part of that legal community but, I am required to comply with whatever that "interpretation" may be by the police, the lawyers or a judge. Therefore, I ask the questions to try and understand what the "interpretation" may be for different situations (what if's). I also ask to try and find out if ANYONE has experience in these "what if" situations and how was the LAW interpreted (or how it could be interpreted) and applied in that specific case.

    I don't care about other states unless I happen to visit one. All I care about is how the LAW applies to me living right here in New Mexico. You read the words, I read the words, you interpret, I interpret but, again it is all down to how the police, lawyers and the judge interpret. The LAWS state how one or a few interpret the intent and meaning but do not provide any information or discussion (or examples) on how the law was or can be interpreted to apply to everyone that has to comply with them.

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    I hear what you're saying but I don't completely agree. In this case, the laws in question are rather straightforward. Therefore I feel there is little or no room for interpretation.

    If you have examples, I'd like to see what you think are some of the things open to interpretation.

    If you follow the letter of what the law says, there really should be no grey areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    I hear what you're saying but I don't completely agree. In this case, the laws in question are rather straightforward. Therefore I feel there is little or no room for interpretation.

    If you have examples, I'd like to see what you think are some of the things open to interpretation.

    If you follow the letter of what the law says, there really should be no grey areas.
    I cannot site a specific case because I don't know of any but the way my mind works, here is a hypothetical example:

    You are in a restaurant eating, someone comes in and starts shooting up the place. There is a door behind you however, you choose to return fire to hopefully prevent yourself or anyone from being killed or stop from additional persons being killed or injured. Now my question is, would the legal interpretation, for this instance, be that you are justified in shooting the assailant to protect yourself and others or would it be interpreted that you had the option to leave through the other door and call police thus saving your own life and therefore, was not justified to return fire?

    Just thought of another "what if" situation.

    I walk into a 7/11, Circle K or whatever. There is no sign on the door stating anything about weapons not allowed. I go to a cooler to buy a soda and there on the wall above the cooler for beer is a sign, "NO WEAPONS ALLOWED". I then turn to leave because I know I am not allowed to have my weapons in this place of business. As I approach the door someone comes in to rob the place. He points a gun at me, I feel threatened and shoot him. According to the LAW I am allowed to protect myself and hence the shooting would be justified. But the LAW also says I cannot carry in a place that has a sign posted (and as has been stated in this forum doesn't matter where it is located it still applies) I will now be convicted of a felony. So what is it, am I allowed to protect myself or am I only allowed to die because I am not suppose to have a gun in this location?
    Last edited by NMGoose; 03-11-2012 at 02:10 PM. Reason: Adding more

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