imported post
doobie wrote:
SNIP The attorney's I've talked to here have basically told me, until I have clear reason to believe it's not just a 'chat' it isn't a terry stop. The first time I was detained I could have probably considered it a terry stop because my wallet and shirt I was wearing were seized, without my permission, just taken from me. Wallet after I said, don't take/don't open it; but none of that was on video/audio.
I don't understand why you bring the attorney into it again. Are you in agreement with him? Not in agreement?
Please, read the law for yourself and compare it to what happened. You even called it a detention in your OP. Read the cases cited within Mendenhall if you need to in order to be certain yourself.
Simply put, you were detained/stopped/Terry Stopped/seized. They all mean the same thing in this context.
In the first instance, personal property was seized. In the second instance
you were seized. Just because it didn't involve taking property off your person does not mean it was not a seizure for the purposes of the 4th Amendment. Cites are included above.
Was it as serious as if he had proned you out, cuffed you, and rifled your pockets? No. Was it brief?Yes. But, neitherof those are the standards for whether a seizure has occurred.
Does a police officer have authority to
command you to keep your hands away from your gun during a
consensual encounter? No. Those terms are contradictory. This was
not a consensual encounter. The cop established that with the first words out of his mouth.
Would any reasonable person feel free to ignore an angry cop, cursing his questions at him,and walk away? No. Even being well versed inmy rights, I would not ignore that and walk away. Legal or illegaldetention.
Even if it is an illegal detention,walking awayfrom an angry, cursing cop may well trigger a forceful response from the police officer.In this regard, its not whether you or I think the cop has authority. Its whether
he thinks he has authority to use force to compel you to remain. Whether he is right or wrong in his thinking does not enter into the question at this point. If he believes he does, you will get forced. Since you really don't know what he was told via radio,and you really don't know whether he thinks he has authority to use force, it makes no sense, even after reviewing the situation in more depth than is likely during the encounter itself, to ignore a police officer doing that and walk away.
By the way. Did the cop have a hand on his gun?
It looks to me like this officer got bent out of shape because he has a personal disagreement with citizens being able to defend themselves. And overstepped his bounds.
Use your own judgement on what to do about it. I'd hammer it hard in a formal written complaint. After getting my ducks in a row by obtaining the 911 call recording, radio traffic, field interview notes, etc.