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Email to Va State Police about traffic stop disarming

MattS

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May 16, 2011
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Midlothian Va
The following is an email I sent over the weekend to VA state police> I sent this as I have spoken with several people and LEO's and no one answer was the same.

Sir/ Ma am



I have a question in regards to traffic stops and firearms. During a stop is it law, that if a citizen is caring a firearm , that during that stop the law enforcement officer can disarm you until the stop is processed? I have not been able to locate any local laws regarding this so clarification would be appreciated.



Thank you for your time today
Matt


Response.


Dear Sir,



There is no law that requires such disarming, and no law that prohibits it. It is an officer safety issue.



I trust this information will be of assistance to you.



Sincerely,



Donna K. Tate, Manager

Firearms Transaction Center

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm



Just to be clear there is NO LAW that allows this action from a LEO. Although they said there is no law that prohibits this action, that would be incorrect. The fourth amendment protects the citizen from this illegal seizure of property. So there may be a thread on this somewhere already that I was unable to find however this could be informitive information to someone other than myself.
 

scouser

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804, VA
Just out of interest, have you responded explaining about the 4th Amendment protection?

Would be interesting to see their response to that email
 

MattS

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I just sent that email. I will post when i get their response. I assume I either get no response at all or something to the effect of officer safety again :rolleyes:. We shall see

"Dear Ma'am

Thank you for your feedback. I do however question the legality of the statement "and no law that prohibits it. It is an officer safety issue." Does the fourth amendment of the Bill of Rights not prohibit this action from law enforcement officers without a warrant? "

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Thank you again for your time and continuing feedback involving this
Matt
 
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All American Nightmare

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I just sent that email. I will post when i get their response. I assume I either get no response at all or something to the effect of officer safety again :rolleyes:. We shall see

"Dear Ma'am

Thank you for your feedback. I do however question the legality of the statement "and no law that prohibits it. It is an officer safety issue." Does the fourth amendment of the Bill of Rights not prohibit this action from law enforcement officers without a warrant? "

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Thank you again for your time and continuing feedback involving this
Matt
Why don't you FOIA their policy about the subject?
 

TFred

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There have been many threads here on this subject. The courts have long been granting police officers nearly unlimited discretion in the name of "officer safety", to do pretty much whatever they want. All they have to do is say you gave them a strange look, or the heebee-jeebees... anything that an officer can say, whether it's true or not, that a judge will take to believe you presented a threat, and they can disarm you all day long and the next day too.

This is well established... I don't really see what you hope to learn by pressing them on it.

TFred
 

ocholsteroc

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Virginia, Hampton Roads, NC 9 miles away
There is no law that requires such disarming, and no law that prohibits it. It is an officer safety issue.

What happen to me is he told me after the fact I could have refused to give my gun over, and he would have left me be. But a traffic stop is different than a walk. I am pretty sure that during a traffic stop cops can search your car. I dont remember if this applys to your person or just vehicle.
 

skidmark

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Statute law and case law are vastly different things.

Case law (generally, Terry v. Ohio and its progeny) allow officers to search you and temporarily seize your firm during the investigation of whether or not a crime has been committed. Being stopped due to the alleged violation of a motor vehicle law is in fact an arrest, and during the arrest the officer can seize your firearm. SCOTUS has several versions of decisions upholding that behavior.

The answer provided by the VSP is accurate as far as it goes. It also probably pleases User, with whom I agree that the VSP should not be dispensing legal advice nor interpreting case law.

Might I suggest that your inquiry shift to determining why police training (academy and in-service) does not address officer discretion based on the behavior and demeanor of the driver, as opposed to the cookie-cutter, one-size-fits-all approach they currently espouse?

stay safe.
 

MattS

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Messages
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Midlothian Va
There have been many threads here on this subject. The courts have long been granting police officers nearly unlimited discretion in the name of "officer safety", to do pretty much whatever they want. All they have to do is say you gave them a strange look, or the heebee-jeebees... anything that an officer can say, whether it's true or not, that a judge will take to believe you presented a threat, and they can disarm you all day long and the next day too.

This is well established... I don't really see what you hope to learn by pressing them on it.

TFred

Well there is nothing wrong with asking them a few questions, I personally am not one to give a LEO a hard time or dirty look. I am also not one to be walked on when aware of my limits and rights. My next question to them will be, So if a LEO looks my ID up and sees that i am a CHP holder and then asks me if I am armed and I say no, does he have the right to search my car to validate that response? If so, by what authority and law prohibits this action?" My tax dollars and yours pay for them to answer my questions and yours. I also do not recognize unconstitutional orders or judgements made by localities, states, and the government as that is our right as well. btw yes i spend time on the phone with VDOT about school buses who run stop signs as well. So to sum it up, I am just hoping to have something in writing showing that they are not given any authority by law to conduct such seizures. Im young and I have a lot of time to fight.
 

ProShooter

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Well there is nothing wrong with asking them a few questions, I personally am not one to give a LEO a hard time or dirty look. I am also not one to be walked on when aware of my limits and rights. My next question to them will be, So if a LEO looks my ID up and sees that i am a CHP holder and then asks me if I am armed and I say no, does he have the right to search my car to validate that response? If so, by what authority and law prohibits this action?" My tax dollars and yours pay for them to answer my questions and yours. I also do not recognize unconstitutional orders or judgements made by localities, states, and the government as that is our right as well. btw yes i spend time on the phone with VDOT about school buses who run stop signs as well. So to sum it up, I am just hoping to have something in writing showing that they are not given any authority by law to conduct such seizures. Im young and I have a lot of time to fight.

There is no law that says that they can or can't, as Donna Tate told you. Skidmark hit the nail on the head....

Case law (generally, Terry v. Ohio and its progeny) allow officers to search you and temporarily seize your firm during the investigation of whether or not a crime has been committed. Being stopped due to the alleged violation of a motor vehicle law is in fact an arrest, and during the arrest the officer can seize your firearm. SCOTUS has several versions of decisions upholding that behavior.

That is your answer.
 

TFred

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Well there is nothing wrong with asking them a few questions, I personally am not one to give a LEO a hard time or dirty look. I am also not one to be walked on when aware of my limits and rights. My next question to them will be, So if a LEO looks my ID up and sees that i am a CHP holder and then asks me if I am armed and I say no, does he have the right to search my car to validate that response? If so, by what authority and law prohibits this action?" My tax dollars and yours pay for them to answer my questions and yours. I also do not recognize unconstitutional orders or judgements made by localities, states, and the government as that is our right as well. btw yes i spend time on the phone with VDOT about school buses who run stop signs as well. So to sum it up, I am just hoping to have something in writing showing that they are not given any authority by law to conduct such seizures. Im young and I have a lot of time to fight.
I think you missed my point... it's not whether or not you actually do give them a dirty look, they can always say you gave them an uneasy feeling for any reason... and that is good enough.

ETA: It's all about what they say they felt, there is no "reasonableness" test here.

TFred
 
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All American Nightmare

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Well there is nothing wrong with asking them a few questions, I personally am not one to give a LEO a hard time or dirty look. I am also not one to be walked on when aware of my limits and rights. My next question to them will be, So if a LEO looks my ID up and sees that i am a CHP holder and then asks me if I am armed and I say no, does he have the right to search my car to validate that response? If so, by what authority and law prohibits this action?" My tax dollars and yours pay for them to answer my questions and yours. I also do not recognize unconstitutional orders or judgements made by localities, states, and the government as that is our right as well. btw yes i spend time on the phone with VDOT about school buses who run stop signs as well. So to sum it up, I am just hoping to have something in writing showing that they are not given any authority by law to conduct such seizures. Im young and I have a lot of time to fight.
Asking them questions is pointless. They can lie and yes it is legal (SCOTUS) The deeper you dig the more you will learn. Get a backhoe
 
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MattS

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Midlothian Va
There is no law that says that they can or can't, as Donna Tate told you. Skidmark hit the nail on the head....

Case law (generally, Terry v. Ohio and its progeny) allow officers to search you and temporarily seize your firm during the investigation of whether or not a crime has been committed. Being stopped due to the alleged violation of a motor vehicle law is in fact an arrest, and during the arrest the officer can seize your firearm. SCOTUS has several versions of decisions upholding that behavior.

That is your answer.

I do beg to differ as a "Stop and ID" is not legal in the state of VA and has been judged against several times. A "Terry Stop" is the doppelganger of this. I will be interested in the VSP response. I have several friends that are LEO's and do agree that their is not enough training in this area and it most of the time is a judgement call that does violate our constitutional rights. They have a hard job dont get me wrong, however I also work hard not to be walked on.
 

NovaCop

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Matts,

Proshooter's comment said nothing about stop and ID. He mentioned investigatory stops, Terry and case law. A traffic stop is not a stop and ID stop, a legal stop requires RAS. I will dig up some case law and pm you. You may want to read up on some case law which is usually interesting.
 
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skidmark

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Matts,

Proshooter's comment said nothing about stop and ID. He mentioned investigatory stops, Terry and case law. A traffic stop is not a stop and ID stop, a legal stop requires RAS. I will dig up some case law and pm you. You may want to read up on some case law which is usually interesting.

WTF? NovaCop being helpful?? Stop the presses!! Who are you and what have you done with the real NovaCop? How much will you take to keep him?

Seriously, I think you did this just to mess with the minds of all the haters who say that all cops are bad all the time. Good job!

And thanks for volunteering to teach the "new guy".

stay safe.
 

ravonaf

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What happen to me is he told me after the fact I could have refused to give my gun over, and he would have left me be. But a traffic stop is different than a walk. I am pretty sure that during a traffic stop cops can search your car. I dont remember if this applys to your person or just vehicle.


Cops can't just search your car during a traffic stop. They still have to have probably cause.

http://www.srislawyer.com/attorneys...dui-car-tags-virginia-maryland-massachusetts/
 

peter nap

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Or have a citizen unaware that they have every right to say "No, I do not consent to you searching me or my car."

I don't know ChinChin. The courts have upheld the searches of the immediate area around the person...Officer Safety again.

As far as them doing it legally or not, I'm reminded of a T shirt the Virginia Beach Police had printed for Officers a few years back. It read:

"It's a Cop Thing. We'll make you Understand."
 
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SouthernBoy

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Badger Johnson

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As a representative charged to respond to inquiries the administrator SHOULD have said 'fourth amendment...but...courts have...blah, blah...officer safety'. (see TFred's info above)

Another example of people not knowing their job. If I was her supv. I'd reassign her to sweeping parking lots and reading the law. :(

/end rant.
 
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