Note on concealed versus open carry , John R. Lott, Jr.

Bookman · Sep 20, 2010

ROFLMAO at CC buzzwords

SaintJacque said:
I support open carry but he's right about the tactical advantage of CCing. I support OC as an advocacy and social tool, not necessarily as the most effective self defense means (although it is still pretty damn effective).

I love it when you guys say stupid things like this. Tactical advantage? Element of surprise?

Dude! We're about DETERRING CRIME. We don't WANT to have to shoot anyone. Your buzzwords make you sound bloodthirsty and aggressive.

DCKilla · Sep 20, 2010

I've read John Lott's article and found it rather logical. After running a thought process through my brain, it became clear. CC might be able to reduce more crime than OC. OCing will more likely deter crime in one area for how ever long you are there. Which will send the criminal to find a softer target.

Let's say you're CCing. A criminal comes in and attempts to rob the place. The CCer will engage and hopefully kill the criminal. The criminal will no longer be able to commit more crimes in the future.

There is one thing that OC does very well that CC does not. OC reduces contact between you and criminals. First and fore most on my mind is the safety of my family. So, reducing contact with criminals is a lot safer for my family.

eye95 · Sep 20, 2010

Bookman said:
I love it when you guys say stupid things like this. Tactical advantage? Element of surprise?

Dude! We're about DETERRING CRIME. We don't WANT to have to shoot anyone. Your buzzwords make you sound bloodthirsty and aggressive.

"We" are about many things. I disagree with SJ on CC providing one tactical advantage in that it affords more of an element of surprise than OC does. I just prefer the tactical value deterrence and ease of access more.

SaintJacque · Sep 21, 2010

Snakemathis said:
Leave...

Thank you, I appreciate the offer. But it's nice and cozy in here so I think I'll stay here for a while.

In all seriousness I do support OC, and I do it myself sometimes. I've also heard some interesting arguments in this thread about tactical advantages of OC that I hadn't considered. In any case, this is the best message board I've found online on this or any topic, it's contributors really are great.

SaintJacque · Sep 21, 2010

eye95 said:
"We" are about many things. I disagree with SJ on CC providing one tactical advantage in that it affords more of an element of surprise than OC does. I just prefer the tactical value deterrence and ease of access more.

I agree with that analysis, BTW. I hadn't considered the value of deterrence as it relates to OC. I still value OC primarily as a way of effecting cultural change in the perception of firearms and the men and women who carry them. But, that said, consider me educated on the tactical issues.

eye95 · Sep 21, 2010

SaintJacque said:
I agree with that analysis, BTW. I hadn't considered the value of deterrence as it relates to OC. I still value OC primarily as a way of effecting cultural change in the perception of firearms and the men and women who carry them. But, that said, consider me educated on the tactical issues.

The best analogy I have heard for understanding the values of CC and OC is the relationship between plainclothes and uniformed officers. Plainclothes cops will be more effective at catching the criminal after he commits a crime. The uniform deters the crime in the first place.

They both have value and complement each other. The plainclothes allows for the conviction of criminals, getting them off the streets. The uniform may stop an individual from even starting down that path. Ya kinda need both.

I guess you could also use the analogy of unmarked and marked patrol cars.

Daylen · Sep 21, 2010

So the best way then would be to have an OC firearm with at least one backup CC firearm?

Wastelander · Sep 21, 2010

I guess I just don't understand all the hate that flows between OC and CC proponents. Aren't we all in favor of keeping and bearing arms, regardless of how we go about doing it? Where CC is popular I can certainly say that criminals will consider that any of the seemingly harmless potential targets in that area could be armed. Where OC is popular, criminals will avoid those people. To me it would seem that the more people carrying, the better, no matter if those people are carrying openly or concealed.

eb31 · Sep 21, 2010

Hmmmm.....

I'm CC'ing...BG eludes my SA and gets the drop on me with a knife while still standing several feet away...demands money and personal items. I'm forced to draw and shoot.

I'm OC'ing...BG approaches...sees my handgun and decides he will find another target at a later date.

I prefer scenerio 2.

I know....I know....these scenerios can be nitpicked to death. I wasnt going for a grade, you get the general idea.

Brimstone Baritone · Sep 22, 2010

Exactly.

I OC because I don't want to use my gun. If I wanted to shoot someone, I would hide it and try my best to look like a victim.

CC is uncomfortable. The hammer digs in to my love handles, and I don't like things shoved in my pants that don't belong there. CC is awkward. Nothing says "look at me" like someone who starts pulling off clothes the minute the SHTF. (I acknowledge that is an oversimplification, but the point stands). CC is slow. You're never going to outdraw a BG who already has a gun in hand, but since I can't carry it in my hand all the time I'd rather the next best thing. CC is dishonest. I know I'm on a high horse here, but I don't care. The difference between an OCer and a CCer is the CCer has something to hide. The only time I CC is when I'm not 'allowed' to OC, because chances are I'm not 'allowed' to have the gun at all.

chiefjason · Sep 22, 2010

Personally, give me both. Some folks are just uncomfortable OC'ing. They can CC. Folks that are comfortable OC'ing can. Anything that keeps the BG's guessing is good with me. BG's "Is he armed or not? I don't see one but you never know around here." Too bad that sentiment tends to not go the other way. FWIW, I both OC and CC for various reasons. Options are nice. But yeah, CC is not very comfortable.

Snakemathis · Sep 22, 2010

Daylen said:
That's a great sentiment, anyone with whom you disagree must leave?

No, leave because this topic has been beaten to death at least 100 times on this forum. Thanks for your concern.

eb31 · Sep 22, 2010

Snakemathis said:
No, leave because this topic has been beaten to death at least 100 times on this forum. Thanks for your concern.

Or you could hit the back button while the rest of us discuss it.

Just a thought.

Snakemathis · Sep 22, 2010

Im sorry. Im not trying to be rude and I was out of line. I apologize for that. But it seems like every week we have a new debate on CC vs. OC and its the same arguements again and again. Yes OC deters crime. Yes CC is more socially accepted. When it comes right down to it, neither is ideal, both are flawed, but they are equal. I dont care if you are standing beside me and you are OCing or CCing, isnt the point just that the person is carrying? We can have this arguement (and Im sure we will) for the next one hundred years but it wont change anything. Its not a matter of what is more advantageous, or what is more acceptable in society, its a matter of whether or not the person exercises their rights to carry a firearm for self defense. I can tell you right now, if Im at McDonalds having a burger and someone comes in shooting, I wont be concerned with the manner of which the person beside me is armed, just as long as I have someone to back me up when SHTF. I think most everyone here can agree with me on that.

eb31 · Sep 22, 2010

Snakemathis said:
Im sorry. Im not trying to be rude and I was out of line. I apologize for that. But it seems like every week we have a new debate on CC vs. OC and its the same arguements again and again. Yes OC deters crime. Yes CC is more socially accepted. When it comes right down to it, neither is ideal, both are flawed, but they are equal. I dont care if you are standing beside me and you are OCing or CCing, isnt the point just that the person is carrying? We can have this arguement (and Im sure we will) for the next one hundred years but it wont change anything. Its not a matter of what is more advantageous, or what is more acceptable in society, its a matter of whether or not the person exercises their rights to carry a firearm for self defense. I can tell you right now, if Im at McDonalds having a burger and someone comes in shooting, I wont be concerned with the manner of which the person beside me is armed, just as long as I have someone to back me up when SHTF. I think most everyone here can agree with me on that.

I agree with you 100%. I didnt mean to come off rude to you either, my apologies.

While the issue is an old, beat to death one...I really didnt see the same old arguing over it in this particular thread. So its civil lol

Probably one of the few threads on this forum that doesnt have some overzealous yahoo running around carrying 15 guns arguing about his 2nd amendment rights. Prolly why I was enjoying this thread so much lol.

zoom6zoom · Sep 22, 2010

Two ships are passing through the pirate infested waters off a certain coast. One is a warship, obviously armed. The other is a freighter. Wanna guess which one is going to get attacked? Even if the freighter carries arms and is able to defend themselves, they have been forced into a reactionary, defensive posture.

I want to be the guy who doesn't get targeted in the first place. I'm sick to death of that whole "element of surprise" argument.

hogeaterf6 · Sep 22, 2010

I open carry and some times just leave my shirt hang over it. When i do OC I sit with the gun to the inside of the booth. I also never sit with my back to a door (I have enemies! lol). When shopping I never hold stuff in my gun hand. I try to keep the group of people away from my gun side, if possible. I also keep the ol lady to my right. I'm left handed also.

since9 · Sep 23, 2010

zoom6zoom said:
I want to be the guy who doesn't get targeted in the first place. I'm sick to death of that whole "element of surprise" argument.

Then don't carry. At all.

hogeater f6 said:
I open carry and some times just leave my shirt hang over it. When i do OC I sit with the gun to the inside of the booth. I also never sit with my back to a door (I have enemies! lol). When shopping I never hold stuff in my gun hand. I try to keep the group of people away from my gun side, if possible. I also keep the ol lady to my right. I'm left handed also.

You're head's on straight, hogeater. Carry on!

Snakemathis said:
Yes OC deters crime. Yes CC is more socially accepted. When it comes right down to it, neither is ideal, both are flawed, but they are equal. I dont care if you are standing beside me and you are OCing or CCing, isnt the point just that the person is carrying? We can have this arguement (and Im sure we will) for the next one hundred years but it wont change anything. Its not a matter of what is more advantageous, or what is more acceptable in society, its a matter of whether or not the person exercises their rights to carry a firearm for self defense. I can tell you right now, if Im at McDonalds having a burger and someone comes in shooting, I wont be concerned with the manner of which the person beside me is armed, just as long as I have someone to back me up when SHTF. I think most everyone here can agree with me on that.

Nice summary, Snakemathis.

It is for the reasons you mentioned that I sometimes OC, sometimes CC. Whether or not I do one or the other depends primarily on where I'm going and the time of day. If I'm feeling a bit off my game (ill or on certain medications), unable to pay close attention to my surroundings, I'll either CC or not carry at all, depending on the circumstances.

zack991 · Sep 24, 2010

NavyLT said:
Helloooo! Isn't the highlighted portion above the exact definition of deterrence? I don't carry a gun openly to deter crime from ever happening. I carry a gun openly to deter a crime from happening in my presence.

Of course his analysis is asinine due to the huge difference in goals and willingness to die between terrorists and street criminals.

Agreed and people wounder why people who OC or CC dont get along, totally two separate goals for the most part. Its like R and D fighting over whats the best way to get people back to work, they both want the same thing for the most part but want it done different ways.

Daylen · Sep 24, 2010

mcdonalk said:
Nothing says "look at me" like someone who starts pulling off clothes the minute the SHTF.

yep, the person would either be a stripper, superhero, or preferably both.

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