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What happened to gun safety?

Freki

Newbie
Joined
Jul 23, 2016
Messages
9
Location
Newport News, VA
Within the last week, I have had several guns aimed in my directing while in stores and at a range. What the heck is up with people who forget this? Even today at Green Top in Richmond, had a guy sighting a rifle at me. He seemed to take offense to me asking him to not aim the gun at me with a "but it's not loaded" sort of reply. At a range the other day, a guy with a rental that jammed, comes out with it, swinging it around LOADED, to complain it was jammed. Thankfully, the guy behind the counter grabbed it ASAP and gave him a little speech on the matter.

From a young age, I was always taught to treat every gun as loaded, even if I just unloaded it. Maybe I have been through too much gun safety training and am being a bit paranoid, but I can't think of anyone who would not have a problem having a gun aimed at them.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
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May 21, 2006
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Jeff Cooper's Four Rules:

  1. All guns are always loaded.
  2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
  3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
  4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Once rung, you cannot unring the bell.

 

davidmcbeth

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Jan 14, 2012
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earth's crust
Some places who allow shooting do not accentuate these "rules" very well.

Consider shooting elsewhere if a continual issue is noted. Does not appear as if this is the situation here (yet).

I have been to ranges where almost anything goes ... I generally try to avoid these.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
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Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
Even today at Green Top in Richmond, had a guy sighting a rifle at me. He seemed to take offense to me asking him to not aim the gun at me with a "but it's not loaded" sort of reply. At a range the other day, a guy with a rental that jammed, comes out with it, swinging it around LOADED, to complain it was jammed. Thankfully, the guy behind the counter grabbed it ASAP and gave him a little speech on the matter.

I believe Jeff Cooper's Four Rules should be posted everywhere, and drummed into anyone's head who shows even the slightest tendency to waiver.
 

Maverick9

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Messages
1,404
Location
Mid-atlantic
Situational awareness is preached to keep us safe from bad guys. Perhaps SA should be preached to keep us safe from fools.

It can't do either. Note the OP said the rifle was already pointed at him when he notice and his SA? He stayed there and confronted the person instead of going elsewhere.
 

Freki

Newbie
Joined
Jul 23, 2016
Messages
9
Location
Newport News, VA
Some places who allow shooting do not accentuate these "rules" very well.

Consider shooting elsewhere if a continual issue is noted. Does not appear as if this is the situation here (yet).

I have been to ranges where almost anything goes ... I generally try to avoid these.

So far, the ranges I've visited here have those rules posted AND on the waiver you must sign before entering the range. This was a one off, just an idiot who thought he was above the rules and thought he knew better than anyone else. This is a range that is well regulated, not overly policed, but if you're doing something unsafe, they will call you out on it.
 

Freki

Newbie
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Jul 23, 2016
Messages
9
Location
Newport News, VA
It can't do either. Note the OP said the rifle was already pointed at him when he notice and his SA? He stayed there and confronted the person instead of going elsewhere.

I actually caught it out of the corner of my eye as he was doing so, I jumped out of the line of sight of the barrel and approached him. Others in the same store were aiming UP, this guy decided to aim at the front of the store, and all the people between him and the door.
 

drsysadmin

Regular Member
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Jun 5, 2014
Messages
126
Location
WNC
I actually caught it out of the corner of my eye as he was doing so, I jumped out of the line of sight of the barrel and approached him. Others in the same store were aiming UP, this guy decided to aim at the front of the store, and all the people between him and the door.

Good way to get shot - pointing a firearm at someone who is armed. Reality = YOU don't know it isn't loaded, you must assume it is.

I don't care if it is range or store that sells firearms. You point a firearm at someone with good training - that training takes over.
 

Grapeshot

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May 21, 2006
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Good way to get shot - pointing a firearm at someone who is armed. Reality = YOU don't know it isn't loaded, you must assume it is.

I don't care if it is range or store that sells firearms. You point a firearm at someone with good training - that training takes over.
Situational awareness is just part of the reaction curve.

Stepping aside and correcting the problem would seem imminently better than resorting to violence. Once rung, that bell stays rung and the reverberations will be felt far and wide.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,428
Location
northern wis
Good way to get shot - pointing a firearm at someone who is armed. Reality = YOU don't know it isn't loaded, you must assume it is.

I don't care if it is range or store that sells firearms. You point a firearm at someone with good training - that training takes over.


I am sure that shooting someone in at a gun store, gun show, or range pointing a gun at you would be looked at as unreasonable unless a confirmed threat was noted.

People with good training should able to determine between the two.
 

davidmcbeth

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earth's crust
So, good training is shooting someone that has no intention of harming you or anyone else? I don't think I want any of that training. I think you should turn yourself in to the police and ask that they put you in jail, if you have been trained to the point that you have lost control of your ability to restrain yourself. You need to be reprogrammed by a "sysadmin".

What's the worse that can happen at a range with some guy waving his muzzle in your direction? You get shot/killed. Chances are not high...I just assume it was a brain-fart if it only happens once.

I'm just a bullet catcher anyways.
 

utbagpiper

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Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
The unique situation at gun shows is the reason I do not fault show operators who impose certain restrictions on privately carried firearms. Gun shows are the one place where one handles a gun and is likely to point it at another person (unintentional as that may be), on a fairly regular basis. So some extra precautions are in order.

With the exception of booths/tables set up around the perimeter of a show, it is typically impossible to pick up a gun off a table without having it point at someone in the show. It was pointing at someone before it was picked up. The person may not have been visible behind a booth backdrop. But odds are good that if the gun were to discharge while sitting on the table, or in the act of being picked up, the bullet would strike a person before it found a safe place to come to rest.

This is true even if one is very careful about sighting at the ground after picking up. (Never mind the chance of a dangerous ricochet off the concrete floor typical in the venues that host gun shows.) If one chooses to sight at the ceiling, instead, the gun is certain swept up past people on the way to sighting, and then down past people to be laid back on the table.

People can claim to be perfect about never pointing a gun at anything they don't want to destroy, but at a typical gun show, most anyone who picks a gun up from a table will have pointed it at someone whether they realize it or not.

(One, rare way to avoid this is if display guns are pointed down while on display and then never raised from pointing at the floor while being handled. This is so rare a way for guns to be displayed at shows as to almost not warrant mentioning.)

Deliberately pointing a gun at someone is both dangerous and bad manners.

Not knowing one is pointing a gun at someone else, and that someone not knowing the gun is pointing at them, eliminates the bad manners part. But does nothing to reduce the danger.

Zip ties through magazine wells, barrels, or chambers, give high comfort that the firearm won't discharge. But accepting that forces one to modify his view of the rules.

Charles
 

drsysadmin

Regular Member
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Jun 5, 2014
Messages
126
Location
WNC
Situational awareness is just part of the reaction curve.
Stepping aside and correcting the problem would seem imminently better than resorting to violence. Once rung, that bell stays rung and the reverberations will be felt far and wide.

I totally agree - provided the guy pointing a firearm at you is doing so "innocently". Thing is - there is that moment of decision - does this person, who is sighting in on what appears to be YOU - intend to use the firearm in his hands? You don't KNOW his intent. Given his APPEARANCE - aiming at you - the indication is YES he does intend you harm - so you must make a snap decision based on that. At that point its a "him or me" equation - and if it comes to that - I'm gonna let "him" be the bullet catcher every damned time.

Would hindsight be 20/20? Absolutely. But that wouldn't make the decision to defend yourself from what appeared to be an imminent attack of lethal force wrong or unreasonable.

So, good training is shooting someone that has no intention of harming you or anyone else? I don't think I want any of that training. I think you should turn yourself in to the police and ask that they put you in jail, if you have been trained to the point that you have lost control of your ability to restrain yourself. You need to be reprogrammed by a "sysadmin".

So you happen to see someone aiming a rifle at you and you naturally assume they have no intention of harming you and that the gun is unloaded so nothing bad could possibly happen? Ok - that is your right - and hopefull your moniker here will not prove to be prophetic because of it. However I firmly believe it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Choosing to defend yourself from what would appear to be an imminent, deadly danger can hardly be defined as "lost control" or an inability to restrain oneself.

I am sure that shooting someone in at a gun store, gun show, or range pointing a gun at you would be looked at as unreasonable unless a confirmed threat was noted.
People with good training should able to determine between the two.

Ahh yes - another "don't shoot until your shot at" advocate. So you teach your students that they must wait until a BG shoots first before they can react to a threat? You just totally ignore what Wisconson Statute 949.48 says when you teach? Basic rule of safety in firearms means you treat every one of them as if it is loaded - right? Well, for most people, a loaded firearm pointed at them would constitute a situation where: "... the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself." (949.48)
If that is the training you provide - then I wouldn't consider your training "good" in any sense of the word - especially since it doesn't fall in line with the laws of your state.

utbagpiper said:
Deliberately pointing a gun at someone is both dangerous and bad manners.
Exactly. While I don't believe anyone should take a round for mere bad manners - presenting a lethal threat to others IS a valid reason for someone to defend themselves.

Yes - in a place where firearms are zip-tied, etc - then such an action would be an OVER-reaction. Is it when on a live range? Or in a place like your local wal-mart or sports store that sells not just firearms? Funny - I've seen this forum defend LEO's who have used lethal force against people who were carrying a TOY gun - yet somehow many seem to think that a LAC does not have the same right to use deadly force to defend himself or herself from an apparent deadly danger.

Thankfully - most States have determined that an individual has the right to defend themself from any reasonably apparent lethal threat - without having to wait until they catch lead first.
 
Last edited:

davidmcbeth

Banned
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earth's crust
Many have seen guys at the range swipe the muzzle in a way that it momentarily points at another (not cool).

Vs. seeing a guy shoulder a one shot rifle and point it directly at you.

I think we can distinguish between the two different things.

I have not shot anyone at a range...never even came to the need to assess the need to.


Being shot at a range is a very rare occurrence ... it does occasionally happens, sometimes resulting in death.

For me, its not a concern that needs addressing beyond those things already in place.
 

OC for ME

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Jan 6, 2010
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White Oak Plantation

davidmcbeth

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earth's crust
There is no 949.48...perhaps 939.48

http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/939/III/48

Cops receive special dispensation where the use of a firearm is concerned. Example; A Mom is in jail for shooting a intruder that was in her 16 y/o daughter's bedroom.

http://kfor.com/2016/08/29/oklahoma...n-she-found-in-16-year-old-daughters-bedroom/

This case could have dire consequences for Okies desiring to protect their families while in their castle.

Many states have self defense and other similar statutes as raise-able or affirmative defenses. This means police do not have to consider the possible defenses that would make a shooting completely justifiable as they do not know if the shooter will utilize the defense or not as it (they) is (are) a waive-able defense. OK maybe like that, I don't know.
 

Freki

Newbie
Joined
Jul 23, 2016
Messages
9
Location
Newport News, VA
For me, it was more location based. Had this happened on the street, there would be a different story. In a gun shop, at a show, or even a range it is more than likely an innocent mistake, and is not something to rectify with drawing my own weapon. Now, if I am out in the street or in another situation and see a gun aimed at me, then there is more of an ill intention, and would not hesitate to draw my own firearm. I feel that "location, location, location" also is applicable to this sort of thing.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
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Valhalla
For me, it was more location based. Had this happened on the street, there would be a different story. In a gun shop, at a show, or even a range it is more than likely an innocent mistake, and is not something to rectify with drawing my own weapon. Now, if I am out in the street or in another situation and see a gun aimed at me, then there is more of an ill intention, and would not hesitate to draw my own firearm. I feel that "location, location, location" also is applicable to this sort of thing.
Be on the 'going home' side....RE 101.
 
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