Guns banned from all Postal Property?

Aknazer · Aug 26, 2011

Does anyone know if the title is true? The reason I ask is because I'm currently staying at a hotel that is apparently owned by the USPS. At the doors where I entered I didn't see any signs, but while I was eating dinner I did see a no gun sign and it stated that it was a federal crime to bring a gun into the hotel as it is owned by the USPS. Sadly I didn't have time to write down any of the laws that it referenced, but I had always been under the impression that it was simply illegal to take them into post offices and that that was only because of state law, not federal.

skidmark · Aug 26, 2011

I don't have the cites handy, but it is federal law (United States Code) that prohibits firearms on USPS property. Never knew they owned hotels, but if that's the case then most likely firearms are prohibited there as well as any normal-appearing Post Office.

Although it would still be a violation of the law, if nothing else I'd move anything verboten out of the building and into the locked trunk of your car until you can move them to some lawful place. If that means moving to another hotel/motel, I'd incur the expense rather than risk the arrest.

stay safe.

Aknazer · Aug 26, 2011

I had a chance to check out the sign again. It stated that its illegal to take a gun onto federal property and then lists title 39 section 232.1. I'm going to look more into this when I get the chance.

Fallschirjmäger · Aug 26, 2011

Just what chain is this?

Just because an entity quotes a section of law does not necessarily mean that they are quoting a law that pertains to the situation.

I'm sure they're quoting this part:
(l) Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

I'll bet the hotel didn't include this tiny tidbit:
§ 232.1 Conduct on postal property.
(a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons entering in or on such property. This section shall be posted and kept posted at a conspicuous place on all such property.
This section shall not apply to—
(i) Any portions of real property, owned or leased by the Postal Service, that are leased or subleased by the Postal Service to private tenants for their exclusive use;

It's not a combination Day's Nite Hotel and Cap'n Ron's Fish 'n' Chips restaurant is it?

Or this:
(b) Inspection, recording presence. (1)
Purses, briefcases, and other containers brought into, while on, or being removed from the property are subject to inspection.

Did the hotel mention that you have to be sober at all times whilst staying there?
(g) Alcoholic beverages, drugs, and smoking. (1) A person under the influence of an alcoholic beverage or any drug that has been defined as a ‘‘controlled substance’’ may not enter postal property or operate a motor vehicle on postal property.

Oh, and you can't smoke:
(2) Smoking (defined as having a lighted cigar, cigarette, pipe, or other smoking material) is prohibited in all postal buildings and office space, including public lobbies.

Lastly, you'll have to remove any political stickers from your car or anything Else of a political nature:
(ii) Absolutely no partisan or political literature may be available, displayed, or distributed. This includes photographs, cartoons, and other likenesses of elected officials and candidates for public office.

Aknazer · Aug 26, 2011

skidmark said:
I don't have the cites handy, but it is federal law (United States Code) that prohibits firearms on USPS property. Never knew they owned hotels, but if that's the case then most likely firearms are prohibited there as well as any normal-appearing Post Office.

Although it would still be a violation of the law, if nothing else I'd move anything verboten out of the building and into the locked trunk of your car until you can move them to some lawful place. If that means moving to another hotel/motel, I'd incur the expense rather than risk the arrest.

stay safe.

I'm here helping out with a military marriage retreat for the weekend so I don't have the option of changing hotels sadly. I also didn't realize that it was federally owned property before coming down.

Aknazer · Aug 26, 2011

Fallschirmjäger said:
Just what chain is this?

Just because an entity quotes a section of law does not necessarily mean that they are quoting a law that pertains to the situation.

It's the NCED conference center and I forget what NCED stands for.

lockman · Aug 26, 2011

(l) Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding
the provisions of any other
law, rule or regulation, no person while
on postal property may carry firearms,
other dangerous or deadly weapons, or
explosives, either openly or concealed,
or store the same on postal property,
except for official purposes.

There is probably a dozen or more threads on this but this part: "Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation", seems to nullify the ban if you can find any other regulation, law or rule that states otherwise. The title 18 ban requires signage for one thing, but also exempts carry for other lawful purposes. One would think that would put the CFR regulation at odds with title 18. Of course we all know the way title 18's restrictions of carry in government building currently ignores the "other lawful purpose" provision. Test case anyone? Anyone have standing?

Aknazer · Aug 26, 2011

I just finished checking the posted law and in it it states no alcohol unless authorized by law and I don't know of any laws specifically allowing one to consume alcohol on the premises, but yet there's a bar on the premises so it seems like they are trying to pick and choose which parts to follow. Unless I'm misunderstanding what that section means.

Fallschirjmäger · Aug 26, 2011

Aknazer said:
It's the NCED conference center and I forget what NCED stands for.

Either
Northern Oklahoma Hotel & Conference Center
NCED Conference Center and Hotel - Norman, Oklahoma (OK)
2801 East State Hwy 9, Norman, Oklahoma 73071
Email: ncedreserv@marriott.com

or the

National Center for Employee Development
National Center for Employee Development
2701 E. Imhoff Road, Norman, Oklahoma 73071
Email: registrar@usps.gov

"... the main NCED campus at NCED is a 72-acre, postal-owned site in Norman, Oklahoma. Although the Postal Service is still NCED's biggest customer, whose employees attend job skills and information training, we also welcome other businesses and groups.
...The NCED staff is composed of training experts and administrators working for the Postal Service and contracting through the University of Oklahoma...

I'm going with pickie-choosie, and they're hoping no one inquires too closely. Ask the manager if the bar is violating 232.1.

Fallschirjmäger · Aug 26, 2011

Funny....

If you go to the NCED.GOV website and make a reservation, I'll give you three guesses what MARRIOTT.COM website it leads you to.

If you're staying at the hotel, then it's property exclusively leased to the hotel and you Should be completely safe. Just don't take anything to the Conference Center.

user · Aug 26, 2011

call the local real estate tax assessor's office and find out who the owner is - it may be available online; next call the office that issues business licenses and find out what entity is the licensee at that address.

MKEgal · Aug 26, 2011

Aknazer said:
I just finished checking the posted law and in it it states no alcohol unless authorized by law and I don't know of any laws specifically allowing one to consume alcohol on the premises

To borrow a line from another WI poster:
Can you find a law that says you can have lasagna on Tuesday?
Laws are prohibitory. Unless there's a law saying you can't do something, you may.
(And then there's the discussion of whether or not the law is in line with the Constitution...)

eye95 · Aug 27, 2011

lockman said:
(l) Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding
the provisions of any other
law, rule or regulation, no person while
on postal property may carry firearms,
other dangerous or deadly weapons, or
explosives, either openly or concealed,
or store the same on postal property,
except for official purposes.

There is probably a dozen or more threads on this but this part: "Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation", seems to nullify the ban if you can find any other regulation, law or rule that states otherwise. The title 18 ban requires signage for one thing, but also exempts carry for other lawful purposes. One would think that would put the CFR regulation at odds with title 18. Of course we all know the way title 18's restrictions of carry in government building currently ignores the "other lawful purpose" provision. Test case anyone? Anyone have standing?

"Notwithstanding" means "in spite of" or "regardless of." So, no matter what any other law says, carry on postal property is legal. The question arises out of the exception for "other lawful purposes," not from the "notwithstanding" part.

Aknazer · Aug 27, 2011

MKEgal said:
To borrow a line from another WI poster:
Can you find a law that says you can have lasagna on Tuesday?
Laws are prohibitory. Unless there's a law saying you can't do something, you may.
(And then there's the discussion of whether or not the law is in line with the Constitution...)

I can't find a law about lasagna but in title 39 232.1 it specifically states that it is illegal to have alcohol unless there is a law that allows it. And so as I don't know of any laws that allow it, I would think that the bar would be illegal on the premises. But then if its on land owned by Marriott then it would be legal, but so would carry. So it comes across like they are trying to pick and choose which laws they follow.

William Fisher · Aug 28, 2011

If there wasn't a no-gun sign at the entrance but in the dinning area (is that where the acohol is served?) it may be that that is the only area where firearms are not pemitted.

Fallschirjmäger · Aug 28, 2011

Aknazer said:
I can't find a law about lasagna but in title 39 232.1 it specifically states that it is illegal to have alcohol unless there is a law that allows it. And so as I don't know of any laws that allow it, I would think that the bar would be illegal on the premises. But then if its on land owned by Marriott then it would be legal, but so would carry. So it comes across like they are trying to pick and choose which laws they follow.

"... the main NCED campus at NCED is a 72-acre, postal-owned site in Norman, Oklahoma. Although the Postal Service is still NCED's biggest customer, whose employees attend job skills and information training, we also welcome other businesses and groups.
...The NCED staff is composed of training experts and administrators working for the Postal Service and contracting through the University of Oklahoma...

- - The answer as to who owns the land.

This section shall not apply to—
(i) Any portions of real property, owned or leased by the Postal Service, that are leased or subleased by the Postal Service to private tenants for their exclusive use;

- - The answer provided by 232.1 as to applicability of the prohibition on firearms, alcohol, parking, and anything else in 232.1

rushcreek2 · Aug 28, 2011

Defense of one's person, or property in response to a criminal confrontation IS A LAWFUL PURPOSE at least according to the majority of the justices on the current Supreme Court of the United States.

The antithesis of a LAWFUL purpose would necessarily have to be some unspecified UNlawful purpose.

This may not be the preferred legal interpretation of USPS management, but that would be an option in determining the question of fact.

Incidentally - I was a letter carrier with the San Angelo, Texas Post Office from 1969- 1982. During that time I routinely carried a firearm in my vehicle while parked in the employee parking lot - as did I'm sure most other employees.

Personally - I do my best to avoid visiting Post Offices due to the sheer depressive nature of that experience. That way I am able to scratch - off this particular issue.

I guess if your agency is running an $ 8 billion per year deficit - the hotel industry might be worth looking into.

eye95 · Aug 28, 2011

rushcreek2 said:
Defense of one's person, or property in response to a criminal confrontation IS A LAWFUL PURPOSE at least according to the majority of the justices on the current Supreme Court of the United States...

Do I hear a volunteer for the test case?

Keith Cromm · Nov 18, 2011

Guns banned from all Postal Property?

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