Question on Constitutional Carry.

Para1911 · Apr 15, 2011

If we get Constitutional Carry here is WI, then how does it work when you go into other states that have reciprocity laws? If you get pulled over, and the officer wants to see your CCW and you cant produce one because we dont have a permit, we have constitutional carry, would you not have a problem on your hands? That is the only thing that I have against Constitutional Carry. Am I correct? If not, can someone advise me on how it would work?

civilwarguy · Apr 15, 2011

Para1911 said:
If we get Constitutional Carry here is WI, then how does it work when you go into other states that have reciprocity laws? If you get pulled over, and the officer wants to see your CCW and you cant produce one because we dont have a permit, we have constitutional carry, would you not have a problem on your hands? That is the only thing that I have against Constitutional Carry. Am I correct? If not, can someone advise me on how it would work?

from my understanding the states with constitutional carry currently have an option to obtain a permit for out of state travel to states that honor your home states permit. I may be wrong if anyone knows for sure feel free to jump in here.

Shotgun · Apr 15, 2011

civilwarguy said:
from my understanding the states with constitutional carry currently have an option to obtain a permit for out of state travel to states that honor your home states permit. I may be wrong if anyone knows for sure feel free to jump in here.

I think that's true of all the constitutional carry states except Vermont, which does not offer an optional permit. What do they do? Get New Hampshire permits.

The other more recent constitutional carry states already had a permit system in place; so it makes a certain amount of sense for them to maintain the permit system as an option. Wisconsin has no permit system for Non-LEOs in operation, so to devise an optional permit system would negate some of the advantages of establishing a totally non-permit state. So we'd have to weigh the disadvantage of having no Wisconsin-based permit to use in other states against the disadvantage of having optional permits that would require the expense of creating a bureaucracy to issue the permits along with the expense of getting a permit. I'd prefer to encourage other states to adopt permitless carry as well rather than create a new WI bureaucracy.

Krusty · Apr 15, 2011

My own 2 cents worth is only my opinion as an option.

Let's have Constitutional Carry and if someone needs or wants a permit, take a non resident class. There will still be classes to be had for Florida, Utah and Minnesota permits I'm sure. Let's not burden the residents of Wisconsin with yet another costly bureaucracy!

safcrkr · Apr 15, 2011

So if I travel to neighboring states often, I still need to spend money on a non-resident permit or two, or three... and certain states do NOT recognize non-res permits (Michigan, Colorado, Florida). I currently have $213 worth of non-res permits in my wallet (MN & FL) yet when I travel a few miles up the road into the U.P. of MI, those permits mean nothing. Having family in both MN & FL, those are the two states I'm most likely to visit, along with MI. While MN will recognize a Utah non-res permit, Florida will not. If I want to carry in FL, I need either a FL non-res permit, or a WI resident permit (assuming there's reciprocity in place). Again assuming there's reciprocity in place, to carry in MN I'd need a Utah permit, MN permit, or WI res permit.

Although I back constitutional carry, I won't be too upset with either a AZ/AK type law, or even shall issue law, with a permit cost of around $100... it'd save me $100+ in the long run by eliminating my two non-resident permits.

protias · Apr 15, 2011

Krusty said:
My own 2 cents worth is only my opinion as an option.

Let's have Constitutional Carry and if someone needs or wants a permit, take a non resident class. There will still be classes to be had for Florida, Utah and Minnesota permits I'm sure. Let's not burden the residents of Wisconsin with yet another costly bureaucracy!

This!

safcrkr said:
So if I travel to neighboring states often, I still need to spend money on a non-resident permit or two, or three... and certain states do NOT recognize non-res permits (Michigan, Colorado, Florida). I currently have $213 worth of non-res permits in my wallet (MN & FL) yet when I travel a few miles up the road into the U.P. of MI, those permits mean nothing. Having family in both MN & FL, those are the two states I'm most likely to visit, along with MI. While MN will recognize a Utah non-res permit, Florida will not. If I want to carry in FL, I need either a FL non-res permit, or a WI resident permit (assuming there's reciprocity in place). Again assuming there's reciprocity in place, to carry in MN I'd need a Utah permit, MN permit, or WI res permit.

Although I back constitutional carry, I won't be too upset with either a AZ/AK type law, or even shall issue law, with a permit cost of around $100... it'd save me $100+ in the long run by eliminating my two non-resident permits.

If you have a non-res permit, you can OC with all their regulations, just not CC.

davegran · Apr 15, 2011

Michigan statutes 28.422, 28.432, and 750.234d Allow OC with a non-resident CCW

safcrkr said:
....and certain states do NOT recognize non-res permits (Michigan, Colorado, Florida). ....yet when I travel a few miles up the road into the U.P. of MI, those permits mean nothing....

With a non-resident permit, you can't conceal carry in Michigan but you CAN open carry! Under Michigan statutes 28.422, 28.432, and 750.234d you'll be legal to Open Carry with a non-resident CCW license. You can also Open Carry in:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

And according to Dr. Todd of the Michigan OC forum,

You may carry in all parks... Michigan has complete preemption of local ordinances that deal with firearms.
http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-123-1102
You may want to carry this handy chart: http://www.miopencarry.org/moc_files/brochure.pdf

SIGdude · Apr 15, 2011

wasn't there a national bill being tossed around where the basic concept was that if one state authorizes you to carry a weapon, then all other states must honor that authorization? I thought remember reading something of that sort, but I don't recall the finer points of the proposed bill.

protias · Apr 15, 2011

SIGdude said:
wasn't there a national bill being tossed around where the basic concept was that if one state authorizes you to carry a weapon, then all other states must honor that authorization? I thought remember reading something of that sort, but I don't recall the finer points of the proposed bill.

Yes, but that bill also requires you to identify yourself to police. But that only works if you have a "permit". Why should law abiding citizen have to pay for a right? It's already been paid for!

Shotgun · Apr 15, 2011

safcrkr said:
So if I travel to neighboring states often, I still need to spend money on a non-resident permit or two, or three... and certain states do NOT recognize non-res permits (Michigan, Colorado, Florida). I currently have $213 worth of non-res permits in my wallet (MN & FL) yet when I travel a few miles up the road into the U.P. of MI, those permits mean nothing. Having family in both MN & FL, those are the two states I'm most likely to visit, along with MI. While MN will recognize a Utah non-res permit, Florida will not. If I want to carry in FL, I need either a FL non-res permit, or a WI resident permit (assuming there's reciprocity in place). Again assuming there's reciprocity in place, to carry in MN I'd need a Utah permit, MN permit, or WI res permit.

Although I back constitutional carry, I won't be too upset with either a AZ/AK type law, or even shall issue law, with a permit cost of around $100... it'd save me $100+ in the long run by eliminating my two non-resident permits.

There are plenty (i.e., too many) of states that will honor NO permit from another state, New York, for example. For that reason it is impossible for a non-LEO to carry legally in every state. So whether you have a permit or not, from your own state or from another state, without changes in the laws there will always be places you cannot carry a firearm legally in the USA. So it's easy for each of use to pick where we want to travel and say whether you can carry our guns there, but the fact is nobody will be happy unless they like their own state's laws and don't travel to other states other than those few that accommodate their permit or lack of permit. No permit right now? Fine, stay in WI and OC and travel only to those few states that require no permit or OC in the states that allow OC without a permit. So I think getting other states to change is a better solution in the long run than having Wisconsin adopt a permit policy that will add just some of the states to the list of approved places.

$100? I don't see why an optional permit should cost anywhere near that much. Pennsylvania permits cost only around $20-25 dollars to obtain and you have it in your hands within a week. If WI goes the route of issuing optional permits--- or even mandatory permits-- I don't see why it ought to cost more than PA. The expense of running a criminal records check, (like they run when you buy a new gun) and a few cents for a slip of paper (the permit) and a few dollars in somebody's hands for conducting the check and printing the permit, is the most that can be justified. Of course in WI the sheriffs don't want the extra burden or responsibility of running the checks and issuing permits. And who can blame them? Their budgets are tight already without the extra work assigned to them.

Para1911 · Apr 15, 2011

Shotgun said:
There are plenty (i.e., too many) of states that will honor NO permit from another state, New York, for example. For that reason it is impossible for a non-LEO to carry legally in every state. So whether you have a permit or not, from your own state or from another state, without changes in the laws there will always be places you cannot carry a firearm legally in the USA. So it's easy for each of use to pick where we want to travel and say whether you can carry our guns there, but the fact is nobody will be happy unless they like their own state's laws and don't travel to other states other than those few that accommodate their permit or lack of permit. No permit right now? Fine, stay in WI and OC and travel only to those few states that require no permit or OC in the states that allow OC without a permit. So I think getting other states to change is a better solution in the long run than having Wisconsin adopt a permit policy that will add just some of the states to the list of approved places.

$100? I don't see why an optional permit should cost anywhere near that much. Pennsylvania permits cost only around $20-25 dollars to obtain and you have it in your hands within a week. If WI goes the route of issuing optional permits--- or even mandatory permits-- I don't see why it ought to cost more than PA. The expense of running a criminal records check, (like they run when you buy a new gun) and a few cents for a slip of paper (the permit) and a few dollars in somebody's hands for conducting the check and printing the permit, is the most that can be justified. Of course in WI the sheriffs don't want the extra burden or responsibility of running the checks and issuing permits. And who can blame them? Their budgets are tight already without the extra work assigned to them.

Hmmm, so now you want to tell me where I should travel now because you want contitutional carry. interesting.

Shotgun · Apr 15, 2011

Para1911 said:
Hmmm, so now you want to tell me where I should travel now because you want contitutional carry. interesting.

I said nothing about where you should travel, that's entirely up to you. I simply pointed out that it doesn't matter what sort of concealed carry provisions are adopted, there will always be places one cannot go outside of their respective state and still legally carry a gun.

safcrkr · Apr 16, 2011

davegran said:
With a non-resident permit, you can't conceal carry in Michigan but you CAN open carry! Under Michigan statutes 28.422, 28.432, and 750.234d you'll be legal to Open Carry with a non-resident CCW license. You can also Open Carry in:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

And according to Dr. Todd of the Michigan OC forum,

Loaded and on my belt while I drive? Didn't think so. I'm not planning on walking to MI.

davegran · Apr 17, 2011

safcrkr said:
Loaded and on my belt while I drive? Didn't think so. I'm not planning on walking to MI.

Do you walk everywhere in Wisconsin? What you originally wrote was:

....I currently have $213 worth of non-res permits in my wallet (MN & FL) yet when I travel a few miles up the road into the U.P. of MI, those permits mean nothing....

And that simply isn't true, since those permits allow you to OC in Michigan. Either accept things the way they are or work to change them.

Question on Constitutional Carry.

Para1911

Regular Member

civilwarguy

Regular Member

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

Krusty

Regular Member

safcrkr

Regular Member

protias

Regular Member

davegran

Regular Member

SIGdude

Regular Member

protias

Regular Member

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

Para1911

Regular Member

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

safcrkr

Regular Member

davegran

Regular Member