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No EMPTY Gun Holsters Allowed In St.Louis Zoo!

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Jared

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To Grapeshot. I sent them a email requesting the materials they train there employees on since the new changes to the Mo Constitution and SB656. And got Dustin from Marketing. I let him know our conversation was being recorded HE agreed. Then when i start citing Laws, he then said he no longer felt comfortable being recorded! Got Dustin from marketing saying and I quote "The Zoo is a Gated Amusement Park". Really now.

Open carry is legal almost everywhere, amusement parks, schools, etc. Especially if you have a CCW.

Sounds like you guys in the St. Louis area need an OC meet up at the zoo with about 15 people.
 

Grapeshot

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To Grapeshot. I sent them a email requesting the materials they train there employees on since the new changes to the Mo Constitution and SB656. And got Dustin from Marketing. I let him know our conversation was being recorded HE agreed. Then when i start citing Laws, he then said he no longer felt comfortable being recorded! Got Dustin from marketing saying and I quote "The Zoo is a Gated Amusement Park". Really now.

Sometimes saying less is more. You did not have to advise him that you were recording. Missouri is a one party consent state and you were one of the parties.

http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/missouri-recording-law
 

deepdiver

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Thanks for the PM.

As I suspected, concealed carry might be able to be disallowed, but not open carry.


BB62's PM led me today, when I had time, to thoroughly review and refresh myself on Section 21.750.1 and Section 571. RSMO 571 does indeed very specifically refer to "concealed carry" throughout and 21.750.1 does not, contrary my memory, have any restriction on places to open carry regardless of the requirement to have a CCW or other state CC license/permit to negate any ordinance banning open carry.

I do not see how, statutorily, the Zoo could ban OC for those with a CC permit/license, as MO recognizes all 50 state CC permit/license and 21.750.1 carries no prohibition on any place to OC and 571 restrictions on places to carry are quite specific to concealed carry weapons.

I do apologize to OCDO for any confusion my earlier post may have interjected into the discussion. My memory was rather fallible on this and for some reason I was thinking that 21.750.1 was tied to the prohibited carry locations of 571. Thank you to BB62 for the impetus to re-educate myself on the new statute language and be a more informed open carrier.
 
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SW40VE-OC

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Maybe I'm missing something, but what do statutes concerning firearms have to do with an empty holster? And the op was asked to leave? Isn't that in the same class of nonsense as: prohibition of Poptart 'guns', drawings of guns, shirt with gun depictions, finger 'guns' in schools/ government meetings? Just for a good time, I can't go buy a holster or two and just wear them, empty? I realize the thread sort of morphed into the legal side of 'an actual firearm involved', so please forgive me if I seem cynical. And also, why should it matter to me? I live in another state and don't plan to visit St Louis any time soon.
 

Grapeshot

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Maybe I'm missing something, but what do statutes concerning firearms have to do with an empty holster? And the op was asked to leave? Isn't that in the same class of nonsense as: prohibition of Poptart 'guns', drawings of guns, shirt with gun depictions, finger 'guns' in schools/ government meetings? Just for a good time, I can't go buy a holster or two and just wear them, empty? I realize the thread sort of morphed into the legal side of 'an actual firearm involved', so please forgive me if I seem cynical. And also, why should it matter to me? I live in another state and don't plan to visit St Louis any time soon.
Yep the OP had an empty holster, but another suggested an OC meet up at the zoo. We are just looking at all aspects of the situation and how to make the best of it - it is what we do. :)
 

logunowner

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BB62's PM led me today, when I had time, to thoroughly review and refresh myself on Section 21.750.1 and Section 571. RSMO 571 does indeed very specifically refer to "concealed carry" throughout and 21.750.1 does not, contrary my memory, have any restriction on places to open carry regardless of the requirement to have a CCW or other state CC license/permit to negate any ordinance banning open carry.

I do not see how, statutorily, the Zoo could ban OC for those with a CC permit/license, as MO recognizes all 50 state CC permit/license and 21.750.1 carries no prohibition on any place to OC and 571 restrictions on places to carry are quite specific to concealed carry weapons.

I do apologize to OCDO for any confusion my earlier post may have interjected into the discussion. My memory was rather fallible on this and for some reason I was thinking that 21.750.1 was tied to the prohibited carry locations of 571. Thank you to BB62 for the impetus to re-educate myself on the new statute language and be a more informed open carrier.

Thank-you for taking the time to research this for us that open carry, much appreciated. It appears to me that someone like myself that has a CCW would be very limited in where I would NOT be able to open carry. Would that be a fair assumption?

Thanks again.
 

deepdiver

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Thank-you for taking the time to research this for us that open carry, much appreciated. It appears to me that someone like myself that has a CCW would be very limited in where I would NOT be able to open carry. Would that be a fair assumption?

Thanks again.
In reviewing the 2 sections mentioned, 21.750.1 while stating that those with CCW or otherwise recognized CC license/permit (MO recognizes all other state CC) does not specify any off-limits areas. Section 571 areas appear to be specific to concealed carry as that term is used throughout. Read for yourself and see if you draw a different conclusion:

http://moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/02100007501.html (Section 21.750)

http://moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/chapters/chapText571.html (all of 571)

I'm not seeing any off limits or signage restrictions on OC. Obviously Fed restrictions would apply under fed statutes, but for state, I don't see any limitations for signage or otherwise. I have read arguments to the contrary but I am not seeing confirmation in the statute. And any conversation about this is completely ignoring Amendment 5 and whatever ramifications it may (or depending on case law may not) have.
 

deepdiver

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Maybe I'm missing something, but what do statutes concerning firearms have to do with an empty holster? And the op was asked to leave? Isn't that in the same class of nonsense as: prohibition of Poptart 'guns', drawings of guns, shirt with gun depictions, finger 'guns' in schools/ government meetings? Just for a good time, I can't go buy a holster or two and just wear them, empty? I realize the thread sort of morphed into the legal side of 'an actual firearm involved', so please forgive me if I seem cynical. And also, why should it matter to me? I live in another state and don't plan to visit St Louis any time soon.

None. Absolutely none as applies to carry. The situation of the OP was a simple trespass issue, IMO. Zoo security was like "hey, we want you to leave or we'll call the cops and trespass you". That is not what they said but I don't see that they had any other leg to stand on beyond a simple trespass.

As to why it matters to you, I don't know. You're the one who posted in the Missouri sub-forum. :cool:
 

Grapeshot

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Doomed to repeat history

To some people it won't matter what happens to other people...............until they come for him and there is no one left to speak up.
 

deepdiver

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To some people it won't matter what happens to other people...............until they come for him and there is no one left to speak up.
And that is our job. To act somewhat as sheepdogs and protect the flock despite their reservations, objections and vitriol. It is not always pleasant or easy but future generations rely upon our vigilance in challenging actual encroachment of our constitutionally protect rights rather than just social justice blithering.

But then perhaps I over state. I just want to carry at the zzzooooooo. :lol:
 

logunowner

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In reviewing the 2 sections mentioned, 21.750.1 while stating that those with CCW or otherwise recognized CC license/permit (MO recognizes all other state CC) does not specify any off-limits areas. Section 571 areas appear to be specific to concealed carry as that term is used throughout. Read for yourself and see if you draw a different conclusion:

http://moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/02100007501.html (Section 21.750)

http://moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/chapters/chapText571.html (all of 571)

I'm not seeing any off limits or signage restrictions on OC. Obviously Fed restrictions would apply under fed statutes, but for state, I don't see any limitations for signage or otherwise. I have read arguments to the contrary but I am not seeing confirmation in the statute. And any conversation about this is completely ignoring Amendment 5 and whatever ramifications it may (or depending on case law may not) have.

I re-read Section 21.750 and all of 571 and I agree wholeheartedly that unless both of us are missing something, open carry with a CCW is wide open in our state. In fact I couldn't believe it when I read the follow in 571:


"4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, a valid concealed carry endorsement issued before August 28, 2013, or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state."

Subdivisions of (1), (8) and (10) are below"

(1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use;

(8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into any election precinct on any election day, or into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal government, state government, or political subdivision thereof;

(10) Carries a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any school, onto any school bus, or onto the premises of any function or activity sponsored or sanctioned by school officials or the district school board;

(I believe the above means open carry in a church or school is legal as long as you have a CCW, do you see it that way or am I way out in left field?
 

SW40VE-OC

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I certainly didn't intend to instigate a 'kerfuffle'. It has been a long day at work surviving the masses on the road. My brain function slowed down hours ago. I need to think more before I post comments. My apologies.
I should have changed the "And also.....", to "But then again, what should it matter to me?". Correct, I am interloping on a subforum for a different state than my own.
I see the scenario of the OP getting 'trespassed',or the threatening thereof, for an empty holstered rather laughable. And not necessarily haha funny, but sad that it actually happens. I have read many threads that a common theme is something along the lines of, we(generic term) OCers have to tell LEOs what the law is because they think we can't do such and such. My opinion is that the zoo security person involved should be reprimanded for the embarrassment he caused the zoo. I know I wouldn't want to work with that guy.
I'm learning a lot on OCDO, especially when I have responses that point out my errors.
 

deepdiver

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I certainly didn't intend to instigate a 'kerfuffle'. It has been a long day at work surviving the masses on the road. My brain function slowed down hours ago. I need to think more before I post comments. My apologies.
I should have changed the "And also.....", to "But then again, what should it matter to me?". Correct, I am interloping on a subforum for a different state than my own.
I see the scenario of the OP getting 'trespassed',or the threatening thereof, for an empty holstered rather laughable. And not necessarily haha funny, but sad that it actually happens. I have read many threads that a common theme is something along the lines of, we(generic term) OCers have to tell LEOs what the law is because they think we can't do such and such. My opinion is that the zoo security person involved should be reprimanded for the embarrassment he caused the zoo. I know I wouldn't want to work with that guy.
I'm learning a lot on OCDO, especially when I have responses that point out my errors.
Meh, no kerfuffle. I even used a cool smiley in my response. You asked a valid question, IMO and I responded as best I could. :)
 

deepdiver

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I re-read Section 21.750 and all of 571 and I agree wholeheartedly that unless both of us are missing something, open carry with a CCW is wide open in our state. In fact I couldn't believe it when I read the follow in 571:


"4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, a valid concealed carry endorsement issued before August 28, 2013, or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state."

Subdivisions of (1), (8) and (10) are below"

(1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use;

(8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into any election precinct on any election day, or into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal government, state government, or political subdivision thereof;

(10) Carries a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any school, onto any school bus, or onto the premises of any function or activity sponsored or sanctioned by school officials or the district school board;

(I believe the above means open carry in a church or school is legal as long as you have a CCW, do you see it that way or am I way out in left field?

I'm not even touching the school issue. There are so many laws at different levels I just wouldn't even want to try to figure out that mess beyond knowing I can have it in my car on school property and CC on college campus with CCW under 571 would apparently not be a criminal offense (there are gun shows on our local state university campus so, you know...). Carrying on a bus has its own issues in a separate statute stating that most any carrying on a bus is illegal.

Exemption as to (1) with weapons other than firearms is specific to 571 and CC. 21.750 apparently only negates local ordinance as to open carry of firearms, not other weapons which would, IMO, unless concealed with a CCW, fall under local weapons ordinances.

Church carry though, would seem to be allowable under 21.750 as it is not prohibited and local OC statutes are mooted for CC licensees.

While we can discuss where can we OC matters generally, I would think (but haven't researched statutes) that anyone in control of private property, such as a minister, business owner or property owner, could ask you to leave for any reason including OC and failure to do so would lead to a trespassing citation risk.

Just my thoughts at the moment. I'll have another margarita and see if my opinion wanders. :lol:
 

Mo

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That's probably why they hassled you.

Exactly. Don't expect to be taken seriously when you look like you just stepped out of the trailer park. I.E. wandering around in public shirtless....
 

logunowner

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I'm not even touching the school issue. There are so many laws at different levels I just wouldn't even want to try to figure out that mess beyond knowing I can have it in my car on school property and CC on college campus with CCW under 571 would apparently not be a criminal offense (there are gun shows on our local state university campus so, you know...). Carrying on a bus has its own issues in a separate statute stating that most any carrying on a bus is illegal.

Exemption as to (1) with weapons other than firearms is specific to 571 and CC. 21.750 apparently only negates local ordinance as to open carry of firearms, not other weapons which would, IMO, unless concealed with a CCW, fall under local weapons ordinances.

Church carry though, would seem to be allowable under 21.750 as it is not prohibited and local OC statutes are mooted for CC licensees.

While we can discuss where can we OC matters generally, I would think (but haven't researched statutes) that anyone in control of private property, such as a minister, business owner or property owner, could ask you to leave for any reason including OC and failure to do so would lead to a trespassing citation risk.

Just my thoughts at the moment. I'll have another margarita and see if my opinion wanders. :lol:

I have enjoyed your thoughts, as you enjoy another margarita I had better get to bed as our 8 and 5 year granddaughters will be up early as they enjoy their week with Papa and Grandma. Take care.
 

BB62

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Exactly. Don't expect to be taken seriously when you look like you just stepped out of the trailer park. I.E. wandering around in public shirtless....
Did either you or the other mind-reader on the thread consider that maybe the OP wasn't shirtless once he removed his shirt, but outer-shirtless: IOW, left with wearing an undershirt?
 
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