How can a state run university ban open carry?

Ljec1991 · Oct 21, 2015

I am currently attending a state run university called Utah Valley University in Utah. The university has this posted on their police department main page:

"Utah Valley University complies with state law with regard to weapons on campus. Utah state law clearly states that a person may not possess a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shot gun on school premises (Utah Code 76-10-505.5) except under certain conditions. One of these exceptions indicates that this criminal statute is not applicable if the person is authorized to possess a concealed firearm as provided by the Concealed Weapon Law. UVU abides by this law and accordingly allows concealed firearm permit holders to possess their concealed firearm on campus. There is nothing specifically set forth in the Utah statutes that allows a concealed firearm permit holder to carry that firearm openly on a college campus. State statute defines a concealed dangerous weapon as being covered, hidden, or secured in a manner that the public would not be aware of its presence (Utah Code 76-10-501). As an institution, UVU respects the right of its students and others to legally carry a concealed firearm under those parameters, as outlined by state law."

A representative of the University took me to their policy pages https://www.uvu.edu/policies/officialpolicy/uploads/public/500/541_550/541.student_rights_and_responsibilities_code.20061 116.pdf where it states on page 4:

5.3.1
A student assumes the responsibility to conduct himself or herself in an appropriate manner. Categories of misconduct include, but are not limited to, the following:

5)Use or possession of any weapon, explosive device, or fireworks on a person or storage of
such on university property without prior written approval from the Chief of Campus Police.

How can Utah Valley University restrict open carry based on the fact that an action not made illegal by legislative law is an action you have no right to perform?

Plus in Utah code 53-5a-102 it reads:

"Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property."

So how does Utah Valley University justify its open carry ban?

color of law · Oct 21, 2015

Ljec1991 said:
I am currently attending a state run university called Utah Valley University in Utah. The university has this posted on their police department main page:

"Utah Valley University complies with state law with regard to weapons on campus. Utah state law clearly states that a person may not possess a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shot gun on school premises (Utah Code 76-10-505.5) except under certain conditions. One of these exceptions indicates that this criminal statute is not applicable if the person is authorized to possess a concealed firearm as provided by the Concealed Weapon Law. UVU abides by this law and accordingly allows concealed firearm permit holders to possess their concealed firearm on campus. There is nothing specifically set forth in the Utah statutes that allows a concealed firearm permit holder to carry that firearm openly on a college campus. State statute defines a concealed dangerous weapon as being covered, hidden, or secured in a manner that the public would not be aware of its presence (Utah Code 76-10-501). As an institution, UVU respects the right of its students and others to legally carry a concealed firearm under those parameters, as outlined by state law."

How can UVU restrict open carry based on the fact that an action not decided by legislative law is an action you have no right to perform?

Plus in Utah code 53-5a-102 it reads:

"Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.

So how does UVU justify its open carry ban?"

They didn't. That sentence does not say you cannot open carry on UVU property. As a matter of fact, nowhere in the paragraph does say you can't open carry on UVU property.

Is not Loaded Open Carry legal for those with a valid permit/license to carry a concealed firearm in your state?

Ljec1991 · Oct 21, 2015

gutshot said:
Ask them and they might tell you how.

A representative of the University took me to their policy pages https://www.uvu.edu/policies/officialpolicy/uploads/public/500/541_550/541.student_rights_and_responsibilities_code.20061116.pdf where it states on page 4:

5.3.1
A student assumes the responsibility to conduct himself or herself in an appropriate manner. Categories of misconduct include, but are not limited to, the following:

5)Use or possession of any weapon, explosive device, or fireworks on a person or storage of
such on university property without prior written approval from the Chief of Campus Police.

Also something interesting in the Utah Code:

76-9-102. Disorderly conduct.
(1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if:
(a) the person refuses to comply with the lawful order of a law enforcement officer to move from a public place, or knowingly creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition, by any act which serves no legitimate purpose; or
(b) intending to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, the person:
(i) engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;
(ii) makes unreasonable noises in a public place;
(iii) makes unreasonable noises in a private place which can be heard in a public place; or
(iv) obstructs vehicular or pedestrian traffic.
(2) "Public place," for the purpose of this section, means any place to which the public or a substantial group of the public has access and includes but is not limited to streets, highways, and the common areas of schools, hospitals, apartment houses, office buildings, transport facilities, and shops.
(3) The mere carrying or possession of a holstered or encased firearm, whether visible or concealed, without additional behavior or circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to believe the holstered or encased firearm was carried or possessed with criminal intent, does not constitute a violation of this section. Nothing in this Subsection (3) may limit or prohibit a law enforcement officer from approaching or engaging any person in a voluntary conversation.
(4) Disorderly conduct is a class C misdemeanor if the offense continues after a request by a person to desist. Otherwise it is an infraction.

Ljec1991 · Oct 21, 2015

color of law said:
They didn't. That sentence does not say you cannot open carry on UVU property. As a matter of fact, nowhere in the paragraph does say you can't open carry on UVU property.

Is not Loaded Open Carry legal for those with a valid permit/license to carry a concealed firearm in your state?

Loaded open carry is legal in the state of Utah for those with a valid permit, but to UVU this doesn't seem to matter.

utbagpiper · Oct 21, 2015

UVU enacts this limitation via fear and intimidation.

Their "logic" says that you can only carry with a permit to carry and since that permit is called a "concealed firearm permit" that you must conceal. They claim that since nothing explicitly says you can OC on campus, they can tell you not to OC. They are, of course, ignoring the basic premise of American Jurisprudence that for citizens, what isn't prohibited is permitted while for government, what isn't explicitly allowed is prohibited.

They will not be able to find any specific gun law to charge you with if you OC. They may well attempt to cite you for "Disrupting a School Activity, "Disrupting the operation of a school", or "Criminal Trespass upon school property."

It doesn't take much of a reading to realize that lawful, peaceful OC doesn't actually fit into any of these. But that doesn't mean the school won't try and some low level judge might not agree with them.

Even more likely, they'll call the conduct a violation of student code of conduct and expel you without criminal charges. Now you get to file a suit against them rather than enjoying the rights of someone accused of a crime.

We've pretty much beaten the State run Universities into submission when it comes to lawful concealed carry of a firearm. But some of them have zeroed in on banning OC, or at least harassing anyone who does.

"Being a test case" can be expensive (financially and otherwise), and is not guaranteed to go your way no matter how obvious things look to you and me.

Writing letters to the school asserting their policy is a violation of State Preemption and is therefore illegal may convince them to turn the other way and ignore your violation of the policy.

We'll probably need to see what we can do with the legislature to really solve this problem. Sadly, a few well publicized cases of folks deciding to carry slung long guns around has made OC a less than easy topic with many legislators. We were on track some 5 years ago to pass a law making clear that OC was not a violation of a whole host of the generic kind of laws cited above (DoC, Disruption/trespassing at schools, etc) but slung long guns in very urban areas turned it into a 5 year battle just to get specific OC protections for DoC. It could be a long slog to get appropriate legislation in place to fully neuter school policies in this regard, or to get the rules or budget committees to beat the schools into compliance without new legislation.

It sucks, it ain't right, but it is the way it is right now. How well do you know your own State legislators?

Charles

Ljec1991 · Oct 21, 2015

utbagpiper said:
UVU enacts this limitation via fear and intimidation.

It sucks, it ain't right, but it is the way it is right now. How well do you know your own State legislators?

Charles

I can say that I know none of them. I have never been involved politics, which I cannot give any excuse for besides my lack of age at 24. I am definitely considering some form of contact with school officials, but I do feel there would be some retaliation in doing so. One thing is for certain, that there is a huge conflict between the state law and school policies that is just grinding my guts.

color of law · Oct 21, 2015

Ljec1991 said:
I can say that I know none of them. I have never been involved politics, which I cannot give any excuse for besides my lack of age at 24. I am definitely considering some form of contact with school officials, but I do feel there would be some retaliation in doing so. One thing is for certain, that there is a huge conflict between the state law and school policies that is just grinding my guts.

Welcome to the grown-up world. High school wasn't so bad after all.

Ljec1991 · Oct 21, 2015

color of law said:
Welcome to the grown-up world. High school wasn't so bad after all.

I feel like the grown-up world is much better, at least we are able to exercise some rights as an adult. As a high school student it was like being under a dictatorship.

solus · Oct 21, 2015

listen to the nice piper as he is full of such grand wisdom, which is mainly misinformation, but know this, you do listen and you risk kissing your educational endeavour(s) down the drain...

there is no intimidation...the university will expel and throw your silly OC'g (or CC'g if you brag or are playing show and tell) arse out of school for misconduct. it is not state statutes that will get you in trouble but rather the university's policies and procedures manual dated Jan 6 14:
quote:
5.3.1 A student assumes the responsibility to conduct himself or herself in an appropriatemanner. Categories of misconduct include, but are not limited to, the following:
1) Failure to respect the right of every person to be secure from fear, threats, intimidation,harassment, hazing, and/or physical harm caused by the activities of groups or individuals.

5) Use or possession of any weapon, explosive device, or fireworks on a person or storage ofsuch on university property without prior written approval from the Chief of Campus Police.

21) Failure to conduct oneself in a way that does not endanger the health and well-being ofanother student and/or university personnel.

and they even encourage reporting on your fellow academicians:

5.3.2 Students are encouraged to report violations of this policy to an appropriate universityoffice

unquote

ok OP now your tush is out of university ~ for cause!
1. where you going to live if you were in the dorms ?
2. mom and dad are really going to be cranky with you!
3. your transcript is now coded or plainly marked so you will experience difficulty getting into anything but a lowly Community College hurting for money.
4. six months now pass and your kind lenders are seeking repayment of the $$$ you were lent to attend university.

oh wait you can be a test case as you wait in your olde room at your parent's house and flip burgers to have enough gas money to get back and forth from the burger joint to your parent's home.

ipse

PS...do not contact any school administrators or staff...you will bring undue attention to your self!!

1. https://www.thefire.org/cases/hamli...d-after-advocating-concealed-carry-on-campus/

utbagpiper · Oct 21, 2015

solus said:
listen to the nice piper as he is full of such grand wisdom, which is mainly misinformation,

This from the guy who referred to a violent carjacker as a "victim"? ROFLMAO at the arrogance couple with the ignorance.

solus said:
but know this, you do listen and you risk kissing your educational endeavour(s) down the drain...

Which I made quite clear was a risk he faced. At least it was clear to those literate enough to read English above a 2nd grade level.

solus said:
there is no intimidation...the university will expel and throw your silly OC'g (or CC'g if you brag or are playing show and tell) arse out of school for misconduct.

And exactly how many previous students who OC'd or who made well known that they CC'd have been expelled from UVU or any other State University in Utah for that lawful conduct, solus? How many do you know, know of, or corresponded with?

Several other students have raised the issue with UVU and other colleges. One person was fired from a University of Utah job, then reinstated when his story went public and pressure mounted.

To make any attempt to expel or otherwise punish a student for CCing would be blatantly contrary to our State preemption and our State Supreme Court ruling in University of Utah v. Shurleff. Show and tell would move into the realm of OC and become more iffy. But being very open (but entirely non-threatening) verbally about lawfully CCing is so far inside even the line the colleges recognize as to be completely safe by every objective evidence available.

solus said:
it is not state statutes that will get you in trouble but rather the university's policies and procedures manual dated Jan 6 14:

Again, I raised that point quite clearly. How did you miss it?

I made very clear there were risks involved in "being a test case". I pointed out that the most likely risk was from school policy, with a reduced risk of a charge on some BS catch-all law like disrupting a school activity.

You've not contradicted anything I wrote, yet you conduct yourself most uncivilly and dishonestly in claiming I've given bad advice. Are you really incapable of reading and comprehending the English language?

It is one thing to disagree. It is another to be an arrogant yet ignorant PITA presuming to know Utah culture and laws better than those of us who live here.

Have you considered attempting to bring something positive to these discussions, or simply ignoring them, rather than acting as you have chosen to conduct yourself?

Charles

Ljec1991 · Oct 21, 2015

I do not believe that the Open Carrying is silly. 99.9% of my training is in open carry tactics and my preferred handgun of choice is very hard to conceal. I open carry everyday at work and thus I feel most comfortable when Open Carrying. I find it a huge pain have to take my weapon off my person every time when going to school directly after work because the state entity, also known as Utah Valley University, will not follow the Utah code 53-5a-102.

Utah code 53-5a-102
"Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property."

utbagpiper · Oct 21, 2015

Ljec1991 said:
I can say that I know none of them. I have never been involved politics, which I cannot give any excuse for besides my lack of age at 24. I am definitely considering some form of contact with school officials, but I do feel there would be some retaliation in doing so. One thing is for certain, that there is a huge conflict between the state law and school policies that is just grinding my guts.

Look them up at this web site for both your school address and your home address, assuming both are in Utah and you're not living at home. Give each a call and briefly explain your concerns about school policy violating State preemption. PM me with their responses, please.

And remember that politics and social change are a marathon, not a sprint. Pick your battles, which for now is probably best done by not getting expelled. As a student the school has more leverage over you than if you were just a visitor on campus. It will take some time to resolve this, maybe more time than you will spend at UVU getting your education/degree. But eventually we'll win this one the same way we won concealed carry on campus, teacher carry in public schools, and carry of self-defense guns while hunting.

You might also post your experience over on UtahConcealedCarry.com . You are not the first to have this issue at UVU and might find some strength in numbers, or at least some experience to draw upon.

Charles

color of law · Oct 21, 2015

solus said:
listen to the nice piper as he is full of such grand wisdom, which is mainly misinformation, but know this, you do listen and you risk kissing your educational endeavour(s) down the drain...

there is no intimidation...the university will expel and throw your silly OC'g (or CC'g if you brag or are playing show and tell) arse out of school for misconduct. it is not state statutes that will get you in trouble but rather the university's policies and procedures manual dated Jan 6 14:
quote:
5.3.1 A student assumes the responsibility to conduct himself or herself in an appropriatemanner. Categories of misconduct include, but are not limited to, the following:
1) Failure to respect the right of every person to be secure from fear, threats, intimidation,harassment, hazing, and/or physical harm caused by the activities of groups or individuals.

5) Use or possession of any weapon, explosive device, or fireworks on a person or storage ofsuch on university property without prior written approval from the Chief of Campus Police.

21) Failure to conduct oneself in a way that does not endanger the health and well-being ofanother student and/or university personnel.

and they even encourage reporting on your fellow academicians:

5.3.2 Students are encouraged to report violations of this policy to an appropriate universityoffice

unquote

ok OP now your tush is out of university ~ for cause!
1. where you going to live if you were in the dorms ?
2. mom and dad are really going to be cranky with you!
3. your transcript is now coded or plainly marked so you will experience difficulty getting into anything but a lowly Community College hurting for money.
4. six months now pass and your kind lenders are seeking repayment of the $$$ you were lent to attend university.

oh wait you can be a test case as you wait in your olde room at your parent's house and flip burgers to have enough gas money to get back and forth from the burger joint to your parent's home.

ipse

PS...do not contact any school administrators or staff...you will bring undue attention to your self!!

1. https://www.thefire.org/cases/hamli...d-after-advocating-concealed-carry-on-campus/

So you are saying don't rock the boat????

utbagpiper · Oct 21, 2015

Ljec1991 said:
I open carry everyday at work and thus I feel most comfortable when Open Carrying.

For your job do you OC pursuant to a Utah Permit to carry? Or do you carry pursuant to some kind of armed security guard or police credentials?

Bear in mind that Utah doesn't have any kind of printing statute and so concealed doesn't require deep concealment. While you do not want to blindly decide to OC without carefully considering the risks, an untucked shirt or a light jacket over your OWB holster counts as concealed. The University would be treading into very dangerous waters for them by presuming to impose any penalty on the basis that your gun was not concealed enough if you had made good faith efforts to conceal.

Charles

Ljec1991 · Oct 21, 2015

utbagpiper said:
Look them up at this web site for both your school address and your home address, assuming both are in Utah and you're not living at home. Give each a call and briefly explain your concerns about school policy violating State preemption. PM me with their responses, please.

Charles

I looked it up and it showed that where I live there are no representatives funny enough even though almost every other city has one.

But I will look into contacting the congressmen over the UVU area.

Ljec1991 · Oct 21, 2015

utbagpiper said:
For your job do you OC pursuant to a Utah Permit to carry? Or do you carry pursuant to some kind of armed security guard or police credentials?

Charles

Armed security guard credentials. And also my city does not have any representatives in congress as shown on the map.

solus · Oct 21, 2015

mate, you are such a creature of habit and i truly find it fascinating you continue to exhibit those wonderful NP traits such as name calling, hurling perceived degrading innuendos and other such characteristic examples whenever you are challenged...

Ljec1991, sorry back on topic...

your original post asked how...blunt answer: the enforcement of the University's policies and procedures manual which, when you initially enrolled and every year since, you signed a document stating you would be a good student and abide by those policies, etc.

L, if your age is correct, you are about to graduate or are in the middle of your grad pgm...my recommendation is then quite poignant: tread lightly as the school holds all your present & future educational cards and can arbitrarily, on another student's complaint, real or perceived, throw you into academic probation, suspension, up to expulsion from university.

fight your battles when the university has nothing to hold over your head to use to force you to capitulate to their wishes.

ipse

utbagpiper · Oct 21, 2015

solus said:
mate, you are such a creature of habit and i truly find it fascinating you continue to exhibit those wonderful NP traits such as name calling, hurling perceived degrading innuendos and other such characteristic examples whenever you are challenged...

And your habits of feeling entitled to be a jerk in making non-corrections to what I post has long since grown tiresome. You didn't "challenge" me, because you didn't correct a single thing I posted. You simply attempted to provoke.

You are trolling. Knock it off.

utbagpiper · Oct 21, 2015

Ljec1991 said:
Armed security guard credentials. And also my city does not have any representatives in congress as shown on the map.

EVERY address in Utah has two members in the State legislature: one Senator, one Representative. Those members may not live in your city, but zoom in or enter your address and you'll find out who your reps are. If you live in Utah County, odds are they are at least decent on RKBA.

PM me if you have trouble finding your State legislators. We're not worried about federal congressional members for this exercise. This is all a State issue.

Charles

Ljec1991 · Oct 21, 2015

Understandable Solus. I know that this situation must be taken carefully. I do follow the policies, because I believe in social order. However, this does not mean that I need to agree with said policies, especially when they are violating law. I just wish to seek a good way to stand up for my rights.

How can a state run university ban open carry?

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