OC / CC unlawful display questions

John Hardin said:

<snip>

I asked a LEO friend about this several years ago and he said "if any part of the firearm is hidden from view, consider it concealed." I doubt they consider a holster as "concealment", though. <snip>

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This is what I refer to as serial misinformation. Much of it is intentional as to discourage regular citizens from carrying in the manner that they feel comfortable. It has the illusion of force behind it because it came from a 'LEO friend'.

For cites, please see rapgood's post above.

gogodawgs said:

This is what I refer to as serial misinformation. Much of it is intentional as to discourage regular citizens from carrying in the manner that they feel comfortable. It has the illusion of force behind it because it came from a 'LEO friend'.

For cites, please see rapgood's post above.

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Also I'm sure rapgood accepts cash, check, or credit card for his retainer when you go with the blacks's definition and get arrested and charged with unlawful CCW.

Rap may be right in the highly technical sense, but i wouldn't want to chance his definition to a judge or jury.

considering one arrest means time off work, school, lost grades, lost salary, time in jail, time spent going to court, If I'm lucky I may get ROR'd but that's unlikely and since I don't have 3 to 5K to bond myself out of jail I'll sit there for trial while being used as a sex toy by Trixie Bill and Bubba Sue, not to mention the 10K + that will be in rap's pocket by the time the charge *POSSIBLY* *MAY* be dismissed if you get arrested for unlawful CCW and if the Judge/Jury simply think Rapgood's voice is annoying congradulations I now have 90 days more with my fabulous cell mates to wonder what went wrong. I think common sense will overrule and say get a CPL before doing that.

I and I am sure many others never have to face this scenario by carrying a CPL, it eliminates any vagueness or grey area where someone might try to find.

EMNofSeattle said:

Also I'm sure rapgood accepts cash, check, or credit card for his retainer when you go with the blacks's definition and get arrested and charged with unlawful CCW.

Rap may be right in the highly technical sense, but i wouldn't want to chance his definition to a judge or jury.

considering one arrest means time off work, school, lost grades, lost salary, time in jail, time spent going to court, If I'm lucky I may get ROR'd but that's unlikely and since I don't have 3 to 5K to bond myself out of jail I'll sit there for trial while being used as a sex toy by Trixie Bill and Bubba Sue, not to mention the 10K + that will be in rap's pocket by the time the charge *POSSIBLY* *MAY* be dismissed if you get arrested for unlawful CCW and if the Judge/Jury simply think Rapgood's voice is annoying congradulations I now have 90 days more with my fabulous cell mates to wonder what went wrong. I think common sense will overrule and say get a CPL before doing that.

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What the hell was that?

Are you the guy that tries to tell the mechanic how to do his job too?

Perhaps you should spend more time thinking and less time flexing your fingers.

EMNofSeattle said:

Also I'm sure rapgood accepts cash, check, or credit card for his retainer when you go with the blacks's definition and get arrested and charged with unlawful CCW.

Rap may be right in the highly technical sense, but i wouldn't want to chance his definition to a judge or jury.

considering one arrest means time off work, school, lost grades, lost salary, time in jail, time spent going to court, If I'm lucky I may get ROR'd but that's unlikely and since I don't have 3 to 5K to bond myself out of jail I'll sit there for trial while being used as a sex toy by Trixie Bill and Bubba Sue, not to mention the 10K + that will be in rap's pocket by the time the charge *POSSIBLY* *MAY* be dismissed if you get arrested for unlawful CCW and if the Judge/Jury simply think Rapgood's voice is annoying congradulations I now have 90 days more with my fabulous cell mates to wonder what went wrong. I think common sense will overrule and say get a CPL before doing that.

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Do you admit that this serial misinformation has had a chilling affect your thoughts on carry (either CC or OC)?

Black's definition is the accepted definition by the courts.

I have the courage to do what is legal, it is clear that you do not.

decklin said:

What the hell was that?

Are you the guy that tries to tell the mechanic how to do his job too?

Perhaps you should spend more time thinking and less time flexing your fingers.

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Well we have the words of numerous police officers saying they believe that is illegal and there is no precedent in this state stating what the true definition of concealed is, to the best of my knowledge and Rap didn't post any case law.

I don't generally like people setting others up to be a test case. If you want to shell out thousands in arrest/citation/attorney's fees/possible bond out of jail/lost salary/lost tuition money/ etc and hope you're right then go on ahead.

However if Rap can show me something solid that shows that a partial concealement of a gun in the manners posted on this thread will result in a dismissal of any charges and an actionable case against the agency for violating your rights, then I'll publically apologize.

And if my mechanic advised me to do something that doesn't make sense or sounded iffy, I'll certainly not just take his word for it. believe it or not I've had a bad mechanic screw up the wiring on a car I owned and then covered it up. Rap is not posting legal advice, as his signature says. free legal advice is always worth what you pay for it.

gogodawgs said:

Do you admit that this serial misinformation has had a chilling affect your thoughts on carry (either CC or OC)?

Black's definition is the accepted definition by the courts.

I have the courage to do what is legal, it is clear that you do not.

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1) on open carry? not at all, but open carry is clearly lawful, on CC? maybe, I'm not willing to be a test case. I suppose you can say it has, in that I won't CC until I have a CPL and I'm not going to count on free advice on the internet to keep me out of trouble with a gun "half concealed"

2)It may be, but you know the county is going to have their own interpretation on what constitutes "concealed" under that definition. The county can very well argue their officers have special training and powers above the normal citizen to determine your half concealed piece is a gun but the average citizen can be fooled. I don't put anything past them, why chance it when a CPL is so easy to get in this state?

3) I have the courage to do what is Legal and by legal I mean clearly legal. I don't have time or money to become a piece of case law that doesn't yet exist. And unfortunatly I missed my chance to donate to Josh, Kirk, and MKEgal, I suppose I can hope that people here would contribute to my legal defense, but since no one has gotten jacked up since I joined I haven't had a chance to contribute to Josh or MKE (but if MKE still has outstanding legal debts and is still taking donations I'll write her a check for what little I can afford to give her) I would feel bad about asking for legal donations and I doubt the "dirty authoritarian cop apologist" would find much support in that area.

EMNofSeattle said:

Well we have the words of numerous police officers saying they believe that is illegal and there is no precedent in this state stating what the true definition of concealed is, to the best of my knowledge and Rap didn't post any case law.

I don't generally like people setting others up to be a test case. If you want to shell out thousands in arrest/citation/attorney's fees/possible bond out of jail/lost salary/lost tuition money/ etc and hope you're right then go on ahead.

However if Rap can show me something solid that shows that a partial concealement of a gun in the manners posted on this thread will result in a dismissal of any charges and an actionable case against the agency for violating your rights, then I'll publically apologize.

And if my mechanic advised me to do something that doesn't make sense or sounded iffy, I'll certainly not just take his word for it. believe it or not I've had a bad mechanic screw up the wiring on a car I owned and then covered it up. Rap is not posting legal advice, as his signature says. free legal advice is always worth what you pay for it.

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EMN of Seattle,
You appear to have a lot of kowledge, but you are sadly lacking in education. ie you are basing a legal opinion on the words of a cop, when a practicing attorney gives information that conflicts with your version?
Granted, not all attorney types make the right decision all the time, but the odds are strongly in their favor.
Consider this.....when in college, one of my law profs stated "There is only one thing positive in law, and that is NOTHING is positive in law"
one must consider that what the law says, is not always what the law means. This would be the difference between the Letter of the law and the Spirit of the law.

rapgood said:

I suspect that it is a question that would have to be decided by juries on case-by-case bases.
WRT to being a "reasonable person," I sure wish you and 11 of your peers had been around the last time I had to select a jury!

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That's a major flaw in our system. "A jury of one's peers" really should really read "12 people who couldn't come up with an excuse to avoid jury duty".

gogodawgs said:

This is what I refer to as serial misinformation. Much of it is intentional as to discourage regular citizens from carrying in the manner that they feel comfortable. It has the illusion of force behind it because it came from a 'LEO friend'.

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Oh, agreed. That you won't be successfully prosecuted (or probably even charged) doesn't mean you won't be hassled or detained or possibly even arrested. I only related that story to give some idea of how some cops-on-the-street may interpret it.

gogodawgs said:

I have the courage to do what is legal, it is clear that you do not.

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Alright boys, put the ruler away.

This isn't about courage. If it was, those of us who want to stay out of trouble wouldn't OC in the first place. We simply want to have a fighting chance in court if we are ever wrongfully accused. I'd rather OC and have my weapon clearly visible, so as to have no mistake about what I am doing. Besides, isn't the whole point of OC to be a visual deterrent? if your shirt covers all but the barrel, that isn't very visual, is it?

Why not OC & CC? OC on the weak side, so when you draw from strong side the BG won't know what the heck is going on. :lol:

bmg50cal said:

Why not OC & CC? OC on the weak side, so when you draw from strong side the BG won't know what the heck is going on. :lol:

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That's when you can get him with the Element of Surprise! :lol:

bmg50cal said:

Why not OC & CC? OC on the weak side, so when you draw from strong side the BG won't know what the heck is going on. :lol:

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No No No, you're only supposed to CC, becuase that gives you the element of surprise, so when the mugger grabs your shirt and demands your wallet your CPL will levitate out of your wallet, it will begin glowing with pure light energy, a force field will be established around you and slow down the space-time continuum so you can draw and fire at the mugger who already has a hand and possibly a weapon on you, but he will be shocked as hell!

Scott in Minnesota will be happy to tell you how this works