One in the chamber

DocWalker · Aug 15, 2011

xmanhockey7 said:
Those of us without CPL's cannot. To transport the pistol in our vehicle it must be unloaded and in a container designed for transporting a pistol. Trust me it's not gun and really discourages OC if you are going in and out of a business.

Agreed; know your state laws and follow them when OCing. If you don't have a CCW/CPL then you are at a disadvantage but must follow the laws. I say disadvantage due to the number of cases that either someone didn't have time to load his weapon or was holding on to something with one hand making it impossiable to pull the slide to rack a round with just one hand. For the buisnesses that discourage OCing I will go somewhere else to do buisness.

DocWalker · Aug 15, 2011

NavyLCDR said:
Flying over Iraq during the war, our aircrew would fly with sidearms fully loaded, including one in the chamber. After one flight, when the aircrew were unloading and counting rounds in the ready room, one aircrew came up one round short. We found the round in the cockpit, under the seat. The biggest question we had was that the round was missing from the magazine that was loaded into the gun! We could understand a round possibly coming out of an improperly loaded spare magazine, but the magazine loaded in the gun?!? :uhoh:

I can't resist....It must have been an officer that had the issue most likely one of the pilots that lost the bullet....lol

I had a crew chief once tell me, "you know doc have you ever noticed it takes a college education to break a plane but a high school education to fix a plane." I had to laugh before I realize how that translated to the medical field. Thank god they only gave me a 9mm pistol as my primary weapon in Iraq.

Grapeshot · Aug 15, 2011

WalkingWolf said:
....snip.... most people do not bother to be trained or train themselves with a 1911 that is why there are so many AD/ND with that weapon. Revolvers are just safer not because of the design but because of the person behind the gun.

Cite please.

I find the venerable 1911 to be an exceptional safe handgun, even in the hands of a novice. I will grant you that it is most often operator induced malflucktion when there is an unintended discharge. Still I do not see why the claim that the 1911 is more prone to this.

thebigsd · Aug 15, 2011

Grapeshot said:
Cite please.

I find the venerable 1911 to be an exceptional safe handgun, even in the hands of a novice. I will grant you that it is most often operator induced malflucktion when there is an unintended discharge. Still I do not see why the claim that the 1911 is more prone to this.

I concur. I have four 1911s and have handled them extensively along with my other handguns. Total number of NDs/ADs=0. The theory refuted by Grapeshot would lead one to believe that 1911s are dangerous to operate. Operators are dangerous, not the gun.

WalkingWolf · Aug 15, 2011

Grapeshot said:
Cite please.

I find the venerable 1911 to be an exceptional safe handgun, even in the hands of a novice. I will grant you that it is most often operator induced malflucktion when there is an unintended discharge. Still I do not see why the claim that the 1911 is more prone to this.

You provided your own cite... This is one of the main reasons that for years police depts excluded automatics, that is until more revolver like autos were built. I like 1911's myself I have 1 and a star, that at times I carry. I also carried a 1911 as a LEO, and was trained with it. There are no safeties on most if not all double action revolvers. Loading and unloading does not consist of manipulating hammer or trigger.

WalkingWolf · Aug 15, 2011

thebigsd said:
I concur. I have four 1911s and have handled them extensively along with my other handguns. Total number of NDs/ADs=0. The theory refuted by Grapeshot would lead one to believe that 1911s are dangerous to operate. Operators are dangerous, not the gun.

And a operator needs either getting training or taking the effort to train themselves. Without backtracking I believe it was posted that the more times a firearm is loaded or unloaded is increased chance of AD/ND. Not so with a revolver, and minimized with autos that utilize a hammer drop or firearms that are double action only. It is not rocket surgery, just common sense.

Gort · Aug 15, 2011

WalkingWolf said:
I hope the maker of this video does not mind me borrowing it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeIZa-25RaM But he seems to do well with his paperweight.

It is not ideal but training, training and more training. If that does not work get some pepper spay.

In the Video, guy should have dry fired the gun down range, but good shot.

TheQ · Aug 15, 2011

Grapeshot said:
If that is in fact a common condition for a XDm, I would never own one. In fairness, I have not heard of this before.

This advise was a general advise about a semi-auto handgun I saw on one YouTube video. It makes sense. Your milage may very.

WalkingWolf · Aug 15, 2011

Gort said:
In the Video, guy should have dry fired the gun down range, but good shot.

He was at a range and training appropriately, hopefully for more than just making a video. He proves what most of us know that have carried and fired on a range with a empty chamber that with practice can be just as proficient with a round in the chamber. And more proficient then those without proper training.

If we here in NC were required to load and unload a 1911 would be my carry weapon. I would have very little disadvantage from having to rack a round and fire. Now for a police officer I find the practice of a empty chamber dangerous. There are times a officer pulls his weapon and does not fire. This would mean a officer would have to practice racking putting on the safety, and taking it off if necessary. A good way for an officer to get confused and get hurt. In a SD civilian situation you only draw to fire.

Grapeshot · Aug 15, 2011

WalkingWolf said:
You provided your own cite... This is one of the main reasons that for years police depts excluded automatics, that is until more revolver like autos were built. I like 1911's myself I have 1 and a star, that at times I carry. I also carried a 1911 as a LEO, and was trained with it. There are no safeties on most if not all double action revolvers. Loading and unloading does not consist of manipulating hammer or trigger.

Not so. I requested a cite for your contention that "with a 1911 that is why there are so many AD/ND with that weapon."

Neither my experience nor training would indicate that a 1911 is less safe than any other modern handgun.

thebigsd · Aug 15, 2011

WalkingWolf said:
In a SD civilian situation you only draw to fire.

Wait a sec, shouldn't that be the only time an officer draws his weapon? What I am saying is this: The only reason to draw a firearm is to meet deadly force with deadly force, why should it matter whether it is an officer or a civilian?

Shadow Bear · Aug 15, 2011

WalkingWolf said:
I hope the maker of this video does not mind me borrowing it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeIZa-25RaM But he seems to do well with his paperweight.

It is not ideal but training, training and more training. If that does not work get some pepper spay.

Very nice, but try that with one hand & see what happens. When the need arises, I expect it to come hard & fast; I want that off hand / arm to deflect incoming blows / stabs or to interfere with the aggressor's aim.

Like many things, it looks good in practice and theory, but no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. (Napoleon)

TheQ · Aug 15, 2011

thebigsd said:
Wait a sec, shouldn't that be the only time an officer draws his weapon? What I am saying is this: The only reason to draw a firearm is to meet deadly force with deadly force, why should it matter whether it is an officer or a civilian?

An officer may have his weapon drawn if he's on a call to investigate a situation that may be dangerous -- Example: "There's a knife fight in my back yard" call. Most of us would just avoid those situations. The LEO I duty bound (theoretically -- kind of -- but not really) to go in.

His life hasn't been threatened yet...but he might still reasonably go in gun drawn/lowered towards the ground.

Just my $.02. Don't like it? I don't give a sh*t

Shadow Bear · Aug 15, 2011

thebigsd said:
Wait a sec, shouldn't that be the only time an officer draws his weapon? What I am saying is this: The only reason to draw a firearm is to meet deadly force with deadly force, why should it matter whether it is an officer or a civilian?

Amen. We draw to meet the threat of deadly force, not necessarily to fire. Firing is a decision resulting from the circumstances immediately following.

I draw, you drop, no fire.

Take care not to practice ALWAYS firing immediately after the draw. Test yourself; if you reflexively fire EVERY time, you might live to regret it.

Gort · Aug 15, 2011

WalkingWolf said:
He was at a range and training appropriately, hopefully for more than just making a video. He proves what most of us know that have carried and fired on a range with a empty chamber that with practice can be just as proficient with a round in the chamber. And more proficient then those without proper training.

If we here in NC were required to load and unload a 1911 would be my carry weapon. I would have very little disadvantage from having to rack a round and fire. Now for a police officer I find the practice of a empty chamber dangerous. There are times a officer pulls his weapon and does not fire. This would mean a officer would have to practice racking putting on the safety, and taking it off if necessary. A good way for an officer to get confused and get hurt. In a SD civilian situation you only draw to fire.

Did not mean to say that he should have dry fired at the target, but he dry fires his gun at the next booth beside him instead of down range, if this is training appropriately, i don't want to be at a range beside of this guy, but good shot.

stainless1911 · Aug 15, 2011

TheQ said:
While it does by nature increase the chances -- good discipline and consistent habits while unloading the firearm go a long way to prevent. I sleep with my XDm wrapped in a towel under my pillow. I don't sleep with it chambered thusly, so I unload in before I go to bed.

I place my entire hand (index included) around the grip as one must activate the backstrap safety to manipulate the slide. After that I use my left hand to slowly but evenly work the slide. Slow is important because the chance exists that a live round's firing pin could hit the ejector and go off if pulled super fast. After the slide is back I allow the live round fall through the grip and land on a soft surface below.

Muzzle control while unloading is obviously crucial.

Safe procedures for your gun may differ!

Is that just with the xdM? I can operate the XD without the backstrap safety engaged.

NavyLCDR said:
Respectfully, I would suggest that you take a class that covers the operation of a firearm. Unless the ejector breaks off and jams between the face of the slide and the round, it is impossible for the ejector to hit the primer and set off the round. Look at it this way, do you REALLY think that it is POSSIBLE for you to manually pull the slade back faster and with more force than the action of the pistol when the round is fired? If your theory were even possible, let alone likely, but even possible, it would cause the gun to go full auto if it ever happened when firing the gun. I don't mean to be cruel in my post, but it just doesn't make sense that pulling the slide to the rear manually too quickly could cause an accidental discharge when you can't manually pull it with even a small fraction of the force and speed of the action caused by the round firing.

I know what TheQ is talking about here, although I never thought about it until now. The ejector pin does tick out and its just the right size to act as a firing pin. The extractor is supposed to hold the round in the center, and I cant see it getting out of there, but it is a machine, and machines can fail. It only takes a couple pounds of pressure to set off a primer, if the conditions were right, for instance, a broken extractor, I could see a round going off if it got involved with the ejector.

WalkingWolf · Aug 15, 2011

Gort said:
Did not mean to say that he should have dry fired at the target, but he dry fires his gun at the next booth beside him instead of down range, if this is training appropriately, i don't want to be at a range beside of this guy, but good shot.

I am not a glock owner, or familiar with it personally, so I am not sure what he was doing at that point. The gun was cleared with a empty mag, and unless it is part of the functioning I would not dry fire it. That aside he was training and not pumping a round into the chamber every time he got in and out of the vehicle. The guy that does that I do not want on the street let alone next to me in a range. But bad behavior is bad behavior and I was focusing on his draw/rack/fire and I missed him dry firing, my apologies. I still stand by that having to rack a round is not big disadvantage, and I would still carry a 1911 with a empty chamber with confidence under those restrictions.

Recoil88 · Aug 15, 2011

I was pretty sure there is no law against having one in the chamber in Michigan,be it oc or cc. I always have one in the chamber.Just figured i would ask on here in case something changed.

TheQ · Aug 15, 2011

Dry firing a Glock is a part of the cleaning procedure.

I own a G27.

stainless1911 · Aug 15, 2011

Same with an XD

Its not only legal to carry one in the pipe, but smart.

One in the chamber

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