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!Asking the OC Question at CT police Commission Hearings Across the State!

Rich B

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Messages
2,909
Location
North Branford, Connecticut, USA
Rich - A police chief stating on the record that open carry is legal and that he/she has informed the troops of this fact builds the case at least for a claim that an officer cannot take advantage of qualified immunity in the event that he is sued for violating the civil rights of an open carrier. That would leave the offending officer open to personal civil suit as opposed to a suit against the municipality only.

You are assuming that the Chief is going to state that OC is legal on the record. In my experience, they usually give the same hand waving nonsense that we get from Lt. Vance. "OC maybe legal, but if it alarms someone, it could be a breach of peace".


And I don't think our skirmish line is still anywhere near 'Is OC legal or not'. We all know it is. The PDs know it is. The state know it is. The BFPE knows it is.

The line is now at "Does disorderly conduct or breach of peace ever apply to a lawfully carried firearm?" and "Do the police have the right to detain or harass OCers?". We all know the answer to both questions is 'no', but the Chiefs are not yet going to agree to that. They certainly will not state it on record.

The skirmish line has been moved, IMO we need to concentrate in the right areas to keep it moving.
 
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Good Citizen

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Mar 11, 2011
Messages
104
Location
US
But of what? The Chief's opinion on the law? They are hopefully already well informed of this. It does us no good if the Chief is as opposed to freedom as Wallingford's Chief Dortenzio and insists that every OCer be harassed and investigated for crimes.


A comission meeting is a public hearing not only will the Cheif go on record but who ever is there, and what they have to say. If you go on record and bullet point BOFE's latest, State Police Memo, and state statue, your facts will be presented, and any thing the Cheif says can be recorded, and rebuted, offically! Like you said who care's what he says, it's OC it's legal. Could going to these meeting's "bring persicution" to oc'er's in these towns, well sure, but let's stop being theif's of virute and getting lucky while ocing that were not stoped by the wrong As* Ho*e. It's legal!B]


Again, I am not opposed, but I did provide my opinion on how this should be done if people are going to do it. Court cases will mandate that LEOs follow the law, but education in the meantime is not a bad thing. Again, my concern is that all it is doing is giving the Chief a platform to express his ignorance or arrogance in some cases. We saw the kind of document Chief Dortenzio put out, is that what you want all the Chiefs to be giving to their officers?



I plan on putting offical documents, on file, I dont care what the Cheif puts out afterward, A memo to arrest after offical records and documnets are presented, showing a total disregard for State Statue. If this draws a line in the sand then it is long over due, & in the end will get worked out. Like you say if it's legal who cares what he saids to his officers, I know tons of officers who HATE their Cheif, and other that Kiss his As* to get ahead!


I think if the document is well constructed and written, then we don't need any other comment. If the chiefs decide to ignore it or state contrary opinions to it, that is fine. That will be on the record for any future legal dealings. Courts will not look kindly upon officers or chiefs who were informed of the laws and chose to ignore them or go against them.

True

Meh, I think you are being overly optimistic here. The Chiefs and the towns already have a duty to train their officers. Most of them know the laws as they are stated, but some don't 'like' OC and will harass an OCer. That is always going to be the case. The only way to prevent that is to make sure they understand the penalties for doing so. And right now, there are none on record. After one of the current cases is set down as case law, that will be the time to really get the word out.

When the law is plainly presented and allow to be veiwed by officers to make their own decisions, in most cases it will be well recived not every LEO is an AS* HO*E, and Rouge. From a Social Engenerrinsg standpoint ALOT of cops hate their cheifs, especially in unionized depatments, he's the AS* HO*E, ball buster, and decideds to send out memo's of arrest based on a commission meeting, he may have just signed his own mutiny, I know LEO's that cant wait to throw there Cheif under the bus!


It would be interesting to have a LEO firearms law class in CT, but it would not be easy to get LEOs on board and listening.


I said nothing about an LEO class, i was Talking about retaing The former XO of the State Police firearms unit to go on record at the Police comission hearing, to set strait, from a subject matter expert, the law for the record, and to Piss in "Adolph Mattsons Cherios".
 

JohnGalt

New member
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
92
Location
Avon, CT, ,
You are assuming that the Chief is going to state that OC is legal on the record.
I am not assuming but certainly hoping that a chief would admit such. If a police chief fails to admit what the law plainly is, then we have to go back to square one.

In my experience, they usually give the same hand waving nonsense that we get from Lt. Vance. "OC maybe legal, but if it alarms someone, it could be a breach of peace".
The part about it being legal is good enough for me at least to make an argument that they knew that it was a legal activity and cannot shield themselves behind a shielf of immunity.

The line is now at "Does disorderly conduct or breach of peace ever apply to a lawfully carried firearm?" and "Do the police have the right to detain or harass OCers?".

I completely agree with you on this point. As you now know, however, the law moves slowly and in this area and state, painfully so. I am suggesting that we advance that cause by making detentions/arrests for open carry financially painful for officers. The best way to do that may be to chip away at the shield of immunity little by little by getting admissions from chiefs that the law allows open carrry. Even if they engage in "hand waiving" vis-a-vis BOP, we can start to show the absurdity of a detention and arrest for engaging in a legal activity.

We have to advance the cause that you stated but think that the only way to do so is in court. Now if we could only find a test case.... hmmmm.... Chief after chief admiting at least that the action of open carry is not itself illegal, provides you with one more brick to build your wall against illegal action by the police -- i.e. detaining and arresting an open carrier for carrying only. The whole strategy is about piling evidence on top of evidence so that no LEO can, in good faith, claim that the BOP arrest was based solely on open carry and if he does so, he cannot be entitled to immunity in a subsequent lawsuit.
 

Good Citizen

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2011
Messages
104
Location
US
The part about it being legal is good enough for me at least to make an argument that they knew that it was a legal activity and cannot shield themselves behind a shielf of immunity.

Chief after chief admiting at least that the action of open carry is not itself illegal, provides you with one more brick to build your wall against illegal action by the police -- i.e. detaining and arresting an open carrier for carrying only. The whole strategy is about piling evidence on top of evidence so that no LEO can, in good faith, claim that the BOP arrest was based solely on open carry and if he does so, he cannot be entitled to immunity in a subsequent lawsuit.

Admission #1

This Statement Was Made on Record by

Berlin Police Chairman Robert Peters,

Former State Senator,
Multiple Term Berlin Mayor and
30 yr Berlin Police Officer, & Chairman of the Berlin Police Commission



Exert from the Berlin, CT PD Police Commission Minutes listed on the Berlin Town Web Site PAGE 3 of 10 Paragraph #3:::: June 16, 2010 minutes::

"Mr. GOOD CITIZEN stated that he would like to know what type of training Police Officers and Dispatchers had with carrying firearms in the open. Commissioner Peters stated that it was legal to carry a gun openly in public; however, he would not do it. He stated that any average citizen seeing someone carrying a gun in the open that wasn't wearing a badge would be: nervous and that a prudent person wouldn't carry openly unless they were looking for trouble„ "


That Last Statement can be interpreted a lot of different ways! ??Experience, A Threat??​

Pretty Powerful statement by an Established, Member of the Community (Mayor, State Senator, 30 yr officer,)…… if you are taken down for OC’in in Berlin, CT, I bet any lawyer would love to have a statement like this, if representing an OC’er Arrested in Berlin! Or for some type of Suit Somewhere in the State!
 

KIX

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
960
Location
, ,
[/B] however, he would not do it. He stated that any average citizen seeing someone carrying a gun in the open that wasn't wearing a badge would be: nervous and that a prudent person wouldn't carry openly unless they were looking for trouble„ "

After being on the range with some of 'em.... I'm more scared of them than the average citizen!

Jonathan
 

Freiheit417

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
167
Location
Connecticut
Admission #1

This Statement Was Made on Record by

Berlin Police Chairman Robert Peters,

Former State Senator,
Multiple Term Berlin Mayor and
30 yr Berlin Police Officer, & Chairman of the Berlin Police Commission



Exert from the Berlin, CT PD Police Commission Minutes listed on the Berlin Town Web Site PAGE 3 of 10 Paragraph #3:::: June 16, 2010 minutes::

"Mr. GOOD CITIZEN stated that he would like to know what type of training Police Officers and Dispatchers had with carrying firearms in the open. Commissioner Peters stated that it was legal to carry a gun openly in public; however, he would not do it. He stated that any average citizen seeing someone carrying a gun in the open that wasn't wearing a badge would be: nervous and that a prudent person wouldn't carry openly unless they were looking for trouble„ "


That Last Statement can be interpreted a lot of different ways! ??Experience, A Threat??​

Pretty Powerful statement by an Established, Member of the Community (Mayor, State Senator, 30 yr officer,)…… if you are taken down for OC’in in Berlin, CT, I bet any lawyer would love to have a statement like this, if representing an OC’er Arrested in Berlin! Or for some type of Suit Somewhere in the State!


So by the Chairman's logic, if an "average citizen" becomes alarmed because they see a police officer openly carrying a gun in public, then the officer could be charged with BOP? Doesn't the badge "permit" them to open carry just the same as a CT Permit to Carry Pistols and Revolvers? If the citizen has such an irrational fear of guns and they don't feel comfortable being around ANYONE with a gun, then how would the chairman handle that complaint even though it is fully legal for the officer to carry? Arresting a police officer for doing something that is perfectly within the law is just as absurd as arresting a citizen for the same legal activity.

"PORTLAND, Ore.June 6 2010 -- Portland Police Officer Jim Crooker said he was embarrassed after a manager kicked him out of the Red and Black Cafe in Southeast Portland -- just because he was a uniformed officer..."To me, a uniformed officer doesn't represent safety. It makes me feel unsafe and my customers feel the same way." said Langley."

http://privateofficerbreakingnews.blogspot.com/2010/06/police-officer-ejected-from-cafe.html
 
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