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The Founding Fathers could never have imagined....

WhistlingJack

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
45
Location
Louisville, Ky
“The Founding Fathers could have never imagined something like an AK-47”

I hear this argument all the time when trying to discuss the rights outlined by the Second Amendment. Quite frankly, this argument is so stupid, it offends me that someone thinks I am such a simpleton that I would accept this statement.

There are two points on this matter.

The Founding Fathers and those of their era utilized muzzle-loading blackpowder firearms in hostile confrontations with the Native Americans. The Native Americans used bow and arrows, they used stone and bone arrowheads, they used other weapons made of stone and wood, until Europeans taught them how to work metal. The Founders were well aware of the fact that technology, especially weapons technology advanced over time. This is to say nothing of the fact that the quest to design a firearm capable of firing multiple rounds and doing so quickly; is in fact as old as the firearm itself….and firearms were around a long time before the American Revolution.

The other reason this statement infuriates me is the astonishing lack of vision the one who speaks it conveys, and then assumes I am similarly limited. Someone who truly believes the above statement needs to put down the iPod, get off Facebook, turn off the TV, and crack open a book; and, perhaps, expand their own imagination.

If Gene Rodenberry can imagine a handgun that disintegrates a person, or even many metric tons of solid rock on impact….if George Lucas can envision a space station that destroys planets with so much energy it would take our sun 6,000 years to produce the necessary power….you mean to tell me that the Founding Fathers, some of the wisest men who ever lived could not envision that one day high-capacity and automatic weapons would one day exist? That a group of men which included inventors, scientists, generals, and innovators could not forsee this?

I know I'm just preaching to the choir here, but that statement said so many times recently by those trying to seize on tragedy for personal gain just infuriates me.
 
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Beretta92FSLady

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
5,264
Location
In My Coffee
Personally, if a person is going to make the AK-47 argument, they ought to take a step back, read The Federalist, The Constitution, and formulate a substantive argument as to the Founding Fathers mind at the time of their writings.
 

twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
I actually had something similar to this told to me a few weeks ago. Something like "the 2A was written back when people only had muzzle loaders. It was never meant to allow people machine guns."
My response was "True, but think about it this way, they had the exact same weapons the government had."

To think that anyone would believe that the 2A was meant to say that as weapons got better, people should only have the best weapon available at the writing of the 2A while the government only was allowed to have better weapons... well it's just stupid honestly.
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
The Founding Fathers never envisioned fax machines, email, the internet, 4Chan, telephones, Skype, IRC, or all the other inventions of the last 30 years. I'm not hearing any of the "modern weapons 'r' bad" crowd advocate going back to parchment and quill pens. Theirs is a disingenuous argument at best.

The Pennsylvania and Kentucky rifles of the Revolutionaries were probably better militarily than the Brown Bess musket of the Red Coats. When you can pick off your enemy and he can't get within range; he's pretty ineffective, militarily.
 
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F350

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Messages
941
Location
The High Plains of Wyoming
When someone thinking him/her self as intelligent and witty trys that line with me I say "The founders also never envisioned a newspaper published in NY being distributed in California the same day, full color magazines distributed the same day nation wide, never envisioned radio or television much less the internet. So you are saying the only protected free speech is for newspapers printed on a hand set, hand operated press and delivered by jackass? In which case you would have a nice career".
 

nonameisgood

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
1,008
Location
Big D
It is probably reasonable to say that the founders didn't envision handheld auto loading guns. If they had conceived cartridge-loading weapons, there was little barrier to develop them.

That said, the way they phrased things makes me think that, if they meant musket, they would have said musket. The choice of words was deliberate.

Whether they would have endorsed the idea of carrying a high capacity, high power personal defense weapon around a modern city is a question we should consider. Maybe, by accepting the Supreme Court's notion of fair restriction, we could arrive at an appropriate solution. All-or-none may result in all, or it may result in none.
 
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Freedom1Man

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
4,462
Location
Greater Eastside Washington
When someone thinking him/her self as intelligent and witty tries that line with me I say "The founders also never envisioned a newspaper published in NY being distributed in California the same day, full color magazines distributed the same day nation wide, never envisioned radio or television much less the internet. So you are saying the only protected free speech is for newspapers printed on a hand set, hand operated press and delivered by jackass? In which case you would have a nice career".

Excellent expression you have provided. I may use your words or a variant of them later.

Photographs, film, digital cameras, radio, etc.
 

Kirbinator

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
Messages
903
Location
Middle of the map, Alabama
If the 1776 armies had M16s, CETMEs, and G3s, the Americans would have had them as well. George Washington would have an armory at home to equip his slaves to defend the plantation, and he'd be rocking full-auto as well. People forget that G.W. was a landed gentleman and politically active.

The WHOLE argument about any gun is pointless; as soon as the next development in arms technology gets loose, "full-auto" won't be the issue.

The problem is that "The [sheep] People" don't understand what defensive use of a firearm is because they are largely uneducated and many are immature. The guys who fought in WWII didn't kill because they liked it. They killed because they had a job to do, and because the other guy was trying to kill them. It's not about murder. It's about staying alive.
 

WhistlingJack

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
45
Location
Louisville, Ky
It is probably reasonable to say that the founders didn't envision handheld auto loading guns. If they had conceived cartridge-loading weapons, there was little barrier to develop them.

That said, the way they phrased things makes me think that, if they meant musket, they would have said musket. The choice of words was deliberate.

Whether they would have endorsed the idea of carrying a high capacity, high power personal defense weapon around a modern city is a question we should consider. Maybe, by accepting the Supreme Court's notion of fair restriction, we could arrive at an appropriate solution. All-or-none may result in all, or it may result in none.

I disagree with you there. Just because you can envision something, doesn't mean you can envision how it works. Science Fiction authors have for decades forseen technological developments before they happened, but they did not invent them, someone else did down the road.

Genius is often the ability to do something new, or improved upon something, using a relatively simply method (like creating self-contained cartridges)

TL DR Just because you can envision it, and expect it to occur one day, does not mean you are the one capable of making it happen.
 
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nonameisgood

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
1,008
Location
Big D
I'm not suggesting that the development of the cartridge was simple, or that Franklin or Jefferson didn't conceive of or try to adapt such an invention. I am suggesting that there are inventions which change the fundamental aspects of some public policies. It seems to me that the intent behind the second amendment was to be sure people (and The People) were equipped to support the State, and to defend against it should tyranny again come to power.

We probably need to have a reasoned debate about that, within the RKBA movement, so people can hear all sides. It is unproductive to berate people for holding a different view, and sticking to an extreme position without a good vetting of facts and views isn't healthy.
 

Jack House

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
2,611
Location
I80, USA
I'm not suggesting that the development of the cartridge was simple, or that Franklin or Jefferson didn't conceive of or try to adapt such an invention. I am suggesting that there are inventions which change the fundamental aspects of some public policies. It seems to me that the intent behind the second amendment was to be sure people (and The People) were equipped to support the State, and to defend against it should tyranny again come to power.

We probably need to have a reasoned debate about that, within the RKBA movement, so people can hear all sides. It is unproductive to berate people for holding a different view, and sticking to an extreme position without a good vetting of facts and views isn't healthy.
It has been will continue to be discussed many times over.
 

Redbaron007

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
Messages
1,613
Location
SW MO
I'm not suggesting that the development of the cartridge was simple, or that Franklin or Jefferson didn't conceive of or try to adapt such an invention. I am suggesting that there are inventions which change the fundamental aspects of some public policies. It seems to me that the intent behind the second amendment was to be sure people (and The People) were equipped to support the State, and to defend against it should tyranny again come to power.

We probably need to have a reasoned debate about that, within the RKBA movement, so people can hear all sides. It is unproductive to berate people for holding a different view, and sticking to an extreme position without a good vetting of facts and views isn't healthy.

Are you trying to say we should discuss limiting firearms ourselves because if we don't, we have a good chance of losing all?

No offense, I will respectfully disagree with you.
 

bigdaddy1

Regular Member
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
1,320
Location
Southsider der hey
I actually had something similar to this told to me a few weeks ago. Something like "the 2A was written back when people only had muzzle loaders. It was never meant to allow people machine guns."
My response was "True, but think about it this way, they had the exact same weapons the government had."

To think that anyone would believe that the 2A was meant to say that as weapons got better, people should only have the best weapon available at the writing of the 2A while the government only was allowed to have better weapons... well it's just stupid honestly.

This sir is the winning answer. The intent of the second amendment was not to provide Billy Bob a gun for squirrell hunting, but to provide the American citizen the ability to fight off an tyrannical government. Thomas Jefferson was credited for saying;

unconstitutional.jpg
 
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carsontech

Activist Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Messages
529
Location
Anderson, SC
"The Founding Fathers could never have imagined..."

What business is it of others if I own something the founding fathers "could have never imagined"?

Why do so many seem to worship the founding fathers?

Why should I worship anyone that helped setup a system that, ultimately, dictates what I can't do with my own life and property?

Why should I worship a piece of paper that does the same?

Why would I want a system that dictates what I can and can't do with my own life and property?

Do I own my life and property, or does someone else?

Why would I want someone else to own my life?

Why do many anti-rights an pro-rights people bring up the founding fathers, as to theorize about there approval or disapprove, on a matter?

Do those same people NOT want to own there bodies and make decisions for themselves?

Do these people want to be slaves their whole lives?

Why must others continue to enslave everyone with the perpetuation that someone has to be in control of everyone else?

Why should others get to decide what I can or can't do/own?
 
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bigdaddy1

Regular Member
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
1,320
Location
Southsider der hey
"The Founding Fathers could never have imagined..."

What business is it of others if I own something the founding fathers "could have never imagined"?

Why do so many seem to worship the founding fathers?

Why should I worship anyone that helped setup a system that, ultimately, dictates what I can't do with my own life and property?

Why should I worship a piece of paper that does the same?

Why would I want a system that dictates what I can and can't do with my own life and property?

Do I own my life and property, or does someone else?

Why would I want someone else to own my life?

Why do many anti-rights an pro-rights people bring up the founding fathers, as to theorize about there approval or disapprove, on a matter?

Do those same people NOT want to own there bodies and make decisions for themselves?

Do these people want to be slaves their whole lives?

Why must others continue to enslave everyone with the perpetuation that someone has to be in control of everyone else?

Why should others get to decide what I can or can't do/own?

Those founding fathers you question affirmed those rights by writing on that piece of paper that those rights are not to be diminished. I don't believe anyone worships either of them but we do revere them. The Constitution of the United States is the foundation that our country was based on. With out law there is only anarchy. Even Adam and Eve had to obey God's law so there will always be those that dictate what you do. Most of your points can be refereed to these points.
 
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