Horrible Encounter Open Carrying at Save A Lot

I went to Save A Lot today because i saw an AD for T-Bone for $4.99. When i went to the meat area they did not have any left. So, i left the store without buying anything. As i was leaving the security guard stop me at the door. He told me i could not OC and he has called the cops on me. I told him that OC is legal in AL. There was no weapon sign at the door. But, i will not shop there again if the store did not allow OC. But, can he call his manager to tell me if it was his store policy to not allowed OC. If it was, i would not come back. So, he call the manager. The manager told me that he did not know the law or the store policy on OC. So, he would called the police to get more information about it.

So, i waited on the 5 mins for the police. The first police came and told me it was illegal to OC in AL. I had a copy of the letter AL attorney general on open carry and a Map of all the states that allowed OC. He cop did not want to look at it. So i ask him can he tell me where i can find the law to show me it is illegal to OC and i will stop OCing.

So, two mins later six more policemen came. One of the policeman handcuff me then told away my gun. Then also handcuff my brother who was filming the seen with his phone. One of the policeman finally admit that OC was legal in AL. He said they are going to search me for any warrants. If they did not find one they would let me go. I ask him if he could tell the first policeman that OC was legal in AL. He would not. After waiting 10 mins handcuff in front of the store to see that i did not have any warrants. They finally unhandcuff and return my gun. They told me that i was not allow back to Save A Lot because the security guard did not want me back there.

Sounds like you need to send a version of your story to Save a Lot corporate explaining the horrible treatment you (as a long time customer of course) recieved because of this "security" guard they employ.

I assume others will pipe up about going after the cops for the (appearently) illegal detainment you suffered. This would be good too.


I would suggest to never wait for the cops, in my experience it never goes well. If the security guard isn't putting you under Citizens Arrest (because in 99% of the US security guards have no official authority) then explain that you will contact coporate about the issue and walk out. Unless you KNOW thw cops in your area are well schooled on OC, I expect them to enforce what they think is the law, not what the law actually is (hurray qualified immunity! >.< )

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First off, Welcome to OCDO! Sorry it came after such a terrible encounter.

Did you ask if you were free to leave? What did the police say when they handcuffed you? Did you get the names of the officers? How much of the encounter was recorded?

I would also have recommended simply leaving and following up on the policy of the store from a more neutral location.

Are you familiar witj FOIA requests? If so, I would file one ASAP.

xxsilvertigerxx said:

...So, i waited on the 5 mins for the police...

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Of the many things to learn from this experience, this one cause the biggest "huh?" in my mind.

Were you detained by the security and forced to wait for the police, or was it voluntary?

MAC702 said:

Of the many things to learn from this experience, this one cause the biggest "huh?" in my mind.

Were you detained by the security and forced to wait for the police, or was it voluntary?

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I second the question.

Sounds like an illegal detention by the cops to me. Disarmed and cuffed with no RAS.

Did they demand an identity document from you? Run the serial number of your gun to see if it was stolen before returning it to you? Delete your brother's recording?

If you are considering a lawsuit, don't answer any of our questions or tell us any more about it until your attorney approves the information you want to post.

Security guard? was he in a uniform or did he just have a badge and was in plain clothes?

They shouldn't be allowed to stop you for anything unless you've stolen something from the store. the guards we hired at the store I used to work for could only detain if they witnessed the person stealing merchandise valued over $5.

I'd a told him to can it and went home.

also request the 911 tapes for your local LEA, and see if the guard reported someone "merely OCing" or if he "spiced it up" to get a faster police response....
a standard Open Carry call in my county in WA state doesn't even get an officer to investigate most of the time. I've listened to the scanner multiple times in which deputies told dispatch they weren't going to respond to an OC related call... so see if the guard lied or misled the dispatch....

Why did you sit there? I would have told the guard "piss off and leave me alone" and walk out.

What's he going to do?

EMNofSeattle said:

Security guard? was he in a uniform or did he just have a badge and was in plain clothes?

They shouldn't be allowed to stop you for anything unless you've stolen something from the store. the guards we hired at the store I used to work for could only detain if they witnessed the person stealing merchandise valued over $5.

I'd a told him to can it and went home.

also request the 911 tapes for your local LEA, and see if the guard reported someone "merely OCing" or if he "spiced it up" to get a faster police response....
a standard Open Carry call in my county in WA state doesn't even get an officer to investigate most of the time. I've listened to the scanner multiple times in which deputies told dispatch they weren't going to respond to an OC related call... so see if the guard lied or misled the dispatch....

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Yes, he had on a Security guard uniform.

Citizen said:

Sounds like an illegal detention by the cops to me. Disarmed and cuffed with no RAS.

Did they demand an identity document from you? Run the serial number of your gun to see if it was stolen before returning it to you? Delete your brother's recording?

If you are considering a lawsuit, don't answer any of our questions or tell us any more about it until your attorney approves the information you want to post.

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I am not considering a lawsuit because i was not arrested so i think it would be hard to win the case. And, if i did win i think the attorney would get all of the money. I think they did run the serial number of the gun because they had it for a long time but not sure. I do not think they deleted my brother's recording. But i have not looked at them yet so not sure.

MAC702 said:

Of the many things to learn from this experience, this one cause the biggest "huh?" in my mind.

Were you detained by the security and forced to wait for the police, or was it voluntary?

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I voluntary because the reason he was calling the police was because he said i was breaking the law. I asumed the police would tell the manager i was not breaking any law and i could still shop there and not call the police again on other people that would OC to their store. I also had 3 documents with me to show the guard and policemen AL OC law. So, I thought i had the law on my side. But they did not even want to look at them.

One was the map of OC States with the rules at opencarry.org, letter for the State of AL attorney general 1984, and the AL state constitution.

thebigsd said:

First off, Welcome to OCDO! Sorry it came after such a terrible encounter.

Did you ask if you were free to leave? What did the police say when they handcuffed you? Did you get the names of the officers? How much of the encounter was recorded?

I would also have recommended simply leaving and following up on the policy of the store from a more neutral location.

Are you familiar witj FOIA requests? If so, I would file one ASAP.

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I thought the police would know that AL was an OC State and tell the manager that i was not breaking any laws OCing. So. I would not have to stop shopping there because the manager said he did not know the OC laws and he wanted th police to tell him. When the second police just got there the first thing he say was it was illegal to OC and to turn around and put my hand behind my back. My brother did get their pictures on his phone before they handcuff him. One of them said he was going to give me one of his card after i was unhandcuff but i guess he forgot. I think my brother got film of me being handcuff and a minute or two later he was handcuff so not that much.

Thanks for the replies.

If no lawsuit, I would recommend a formal written complaint against the cops at a minimum. This puts them on notice about the law. And, creates a document/paper trail in case the cops continue.

Even if the cops seem to ignore the complaint or pretend they did nothing wrong, they will get the idea, "Oh, crap. This guy knows the law." A few departments took more than a couple formal complaints to stop harassing OCers, but many straightened up after the OCer formally complained and let the cops know he knew the law on OC and on the 4th Amendment (search and seizure).

Based on your report, you and your brother were seized in violation of your right against unreasonable seizure. As was your gun.

And, depending on the law in your state, your brother may have been illegally seized in violation of his 1st Amendment right to record the police. This has been a bit of a hot-button or current issue around the country for about two or three years now. The ACLU may even be willing to help your brother pursue a lawsuit against or injunction or something against those police. Won't hurt to contact them and find out what his options are.

If you need some help writing a formal complaint, just ask the guys in your state's subforum. The main points will be the legality of OC. And, the illegality of seizing someone without reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) of a crime.

This is all based on your report so far. Understand that 4th Amendment law depends heavily on the facts of each case, so its important that you left out nothing.

And, very important. Double check the law to ensure you were doing nothing else wrong. The last thing you want is to complain and then the police prosecute you for something they didn't pursue at the time. For example, if you were also wearing a red shirt, and red shirts were illegal on that day of the week, the police may suddenly remember the red shirt law, and decide to prosecute you for that. You just want to make sure there wasn't something else you were doing wrong that they can still come after you for.

A few things:

1. Never ask the police the law. Too many don't know it, and you run the risk of running afoul of what they think is the law.

2. Don't wait for the police. Don't be afraid of chance encounters with the police, but don't deliberately act in a way that you know will result in an encounter.

3. If someone from the store tells you that you are not welcome OC, leave. Immediately. Even if you suspect that the person does not have the authority to tell you to leave. Leaving when you didn't have to can be worked out later. Not leaving when told can result in a criminal charge. You can come back later NC and speak to the manager, you can call the manager, you can call corporate, or any combination of the above.

4. File that formal complaint that Citizen talked about. Montgomery was OC-unfriendly until I talked with the deputy chief and the city attorney after I was harassed. Had I not pressed the issue (twice), Montgomery might still be OC-unfriendly. It isn't now.

5. You don't have to be arrested to sue and win. Check out St. John v. McColley. Cops were sued and had to personally cough up several grand for rousting an OCer. They did not arrest him. The case would not be controlling in AL, but it is compelling.

6. Take thebigsd's advice and make formal requests for everything you can think of, 911 calls, radio traffic, incident reports, contact cards, etc. First, it provides information that might be useful in a suit. Second, it lets them know you are serious.

7. If you OC, always, always, always have a recorder running continuously. Don't rely on someone videoing you. Not saying don't video, just have that recorder running also.

8. If you did not have a recorder running, write every detail you can remember on paper as soon as possible. In just a few days, your memory will begin to fade and missing details will be filled in incorrectly.

9. Welcome.

eye95 said:

A few things:

1. Never ask the police the law. Too many don't know it, and you run the risk of running afoul of what they think is the law.

2. Don't wait for the police. Don't be afraid of chance encounters with the police, but don't deliberately act in a way that you know will result in an encounter.

3. If someone from the store tells you that you are not welcome OC, leave. Immediately. Even if you suspect that the person does not have the authority to tell you to leave. Leaving when you didn't have to can be worked out later. Not leaving when told can result in a criminal charge. You can come back later NC and speak to the manager, you can call the manager, you can call corporate, or any combination of the above.

4. File that formal complaint that Citizen talked about. Montgomery was OC-unfriendly until I talked with the deputy chief and the city attorney after I was harassed. Had I not pressed the issue (twice), Montgomery might still be OC-unfriendly. It isn't now.

5. You don't have to be arrested to sue and win. Check out St. John v. McColley. Cops were sued and had to personally cough up several grand for rousting an OCer. They did not arrest him. The case would not be controlling in AL, but it is compelling.

6. Take thebigsd's advice and make formal requests for everything you can think of, 911 calls, radio traffic, incident reports, contact cards, etc. First, it provides information that might be useful in a suit. Second, it lets them know you are serious.

7. If you OC, always, always, always have a recorder running continuously. Don't rely on someone videoing you. Not saying don't video, just have that recorder running also.

8. If you did not have a recorder running, write every detail you can remember on paper as soon as possible. In just a few days, your memory will begin to fade and missing details will be filled in incorrectly.

9. Welcome.

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eye95 thank for the advices.

xxsilvertigerxx said:

eye95 thank for the advices.

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Oh sure, thank just eye95 for his advice and make his head feel all big...I'm just kidding by the way. Eye did a good job of pulling everyones thoughts together into one cohesive post.

I really encourage you to follow up on this to the fullest extent. Yes, it will take some significant effort on your part but in the end it will not only potentially benefit you but your fellow gun owners as well.

Thanks, big, for providing some of the advice I cited.

Now Citizen is gonna be upset.

Wait, I know!

Thanks, Citizen.

thebigsd said:

Eye did a good job of pulling everyones thoughts together into one cohesive post.

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+1

Baked on Grease said:

I would suggest to never wait for the cops

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+1 :exclaim:

xxsilvertigerxx said:

I am not considering a lawsuit because i was not arrested ... And, if i did win i think the attorney would get all of the money.

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Did you feel like you were not free to leave? I'm betting the answer is yes. So you were arrested.
An award will generally either specify "and attorney fees" or be large enough that it's included. The various cases I've won against PD's & cities, my lawyer conferred with me when negotiating, to find an amount which was acceptable.

xxsilvertigerxx said:

I thought the police would know that AL was an OC State and tell the manager that i was not breaking any laws OCing. ... One of them said he was going to give me one of his card after i was unhandcuff but i guess he forgot.

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Police rarely know the laws which affect normal citizens, other than traffic laws, assault, etc.
And no, he didn't forget. It was deliberate.

A whole lot of WTF in the OP's post.

I suggest the OP familiarize himself with the three forms of government/citizen interaction.

1) voluntary
2) detention
3) arrest

Isn't it strange......the government is required BY THE CONSTITUTION (4th Amendment) to provide Reasonable Articulable Suspicion under penalty of law for any interaction other than #1. If the OP, at any time, was induced to believe that he was not free to go, HE WAS UNLAWFULLY DETAINED.

Why do people refuse to render CONSEQUENCES to the government when it tramples all over their rights? I constantly encounter reasons why the government and its agents are excused from violations of the law. "Well, I wasn't arrested." Or "The officers were really polite."

Well.....answer this:

How often do you think private citizens get "the benefit of the doubt" when they break the law?

Do you think things would be cool with the government if you simply broke the law politely?

I wonder if the police often let folks who break the law go because they don't feel like the hassle of all the paperwork and courtroom drama that follows? (I know this happens every now and then, but most likely for minor offenses. How about illegal detention? Think you could make an officer sit in the rear seat of your car for 45 minutes, and have him say,"That's O.K. There won't be any charges. After all, you didn't cuff me and take me to your house."?

Why do people do it for them when THEY break the law?

Why do we look for excuses NOT to hold them accountable?

Do you honestly think they're doing it for you?

Why is it so one-sided?