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Which one of us is right on this law? (Straw purchase)

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hometheaterman

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I'm having a debate with another guy about if it's legal to buy and sell guns with the intent to make a profit without having a FFL. Now page 7 of this defines "engaged in business" pretty clearly. http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

I always took that as that you can make the occasional private sale, but can't buy guns with the intent to resell to make a profit.

The other guy is claiming that you can buy guns to resell as long as it's not your primary source of income. So if someone is doing it to make a few grand a year, this is okay, as long as it's not your main income. He claims, that a buddy of his got cleared by the ATF after they investigated him for this since he wasn't making his "living" off of it.

Which one of us are right?
 
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hometheaterman

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Common sence tells me NO you can not buy and resell guns without FFL.

Question #1 on a form is it? are the actual buyer? NO~you are reselling.

Not a lawyer!

Meaning like buying from a private party and reselling. Not buying new guns from the dealer.
 

ocholsteroc

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Meaning like buying from a private party and reselling. Not buying new guns from the dealer.

I am talking about from a private sale, If you buy a used gun, do not like it, you can sell it. But if you just BUY a brand new gun from a dealer and just sell it for profit without test firing it/using it, IMO its illgeal, because you are doing so for profit without a FFL.

I am not a lawyer and do not know anything.

If person A went to the gun show, bought 10 mosin nagants 91/30's @ $90 each, and sold them all in a private sale for say $120each, he is making a profit with out a FFL. Now if he shot them, and DID NOT LIKE THEM. Then its just a private sale of a gun. But he has the intention of buying for resale without FFL.

Again not a lawyer.
 
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hometheaterman

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I am talking about from a private sale, If you buy a used gun, do not like it, you can sell it. But if you just BUY a brand new gun from a dealer and just sell it for profit without test firing it/using it, IMO its illgeal, because you are doing so for profit without a FFL.

I am not a lawyer and do not know anything.

If person A went to the gun show, bought 10 mosin nagants 91/30's @ $90 each, and sold them all in a private sale for say $120each, he is making a profit with out a FFL. Now if he shot them, and DID NOT LIKE THEM. Then its just a sale of a gun. But he has the intention of buying for resale without FFL.

That's basically how I'm interpreting the law.

The other person seems to believe that you can do this as long as it's not your primary source of income. If it's only income that's not your primary source he says it's fine to do, but I find that hard to believe.
 

hometheaterman

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He claims that since it says "livelihood" and profit that you have to sell enough to make a living off of it. So if you just make a few thousand a year, it's not illegal. I'm just trying to figure out which one of us is right, but the more I read, the more I think it's me.
 

ocholsteroc

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He claims that since it says "livelihood" and profit that you have to sell enough to make a living off of it. So if you just make a few thousand a year, it's not illegal. I'm just trying to figure out which one of us is right, but the more I read, the more I think it's me.

I can not find anything on it right now, for some reason I am up late tonight.
All I know is that, on the form when you buy a gun, it ask are you the buyer or no? and if you put YES then you are going own that gun, if you put NO then you want to resell. Theres nothing wrong with buying a gun, using it for a while, then come to find out you hate it or price for ammo is insane, then want to sell it(thats my case, I have a rifle I can not afford to shoot at $15 a box of ammo of 20rounds, for $25 I can get 100 rounds of shotgun). But buying guns at the gun store/show, to turn around and sell for profit just sounds illgeal to me. You're going have a ton of guns # numbers to you're name.


Again not lawyer.
 
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TFred

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All I know is that, on the form when you buy a gun, it ask are you the buyer or no? and if you put YES then you are going own that gun, if you put NO then you want to resell.
I can't answer the original question, but I can point out that your logic on this particular line of reasoning is flawed.

When you buy a gun with your own money, then you are the owner.

The situation you describe entails what you may or may not plan to do with the gun after you are the owner.

The purpose of this question is to root out straw purchases, not unlicensed gun dealers.

It is my opinion, which is worthless in the eyes of the law, just like yours... that unless you have a specific "other person" identified at the time of your purchase, to whom you plan to transfer the gun, then you are truthfully able to answer the "are you the buyer" question with a "yes".

TFred
 
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ocholsteroc

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I can't answer the original question, but I can point out that your logic on this particular line of reasoning is flawed.

Originally Posted by ocholsteroc
All I know is that, on the form when you buy a gun, it ask are you the buyer or no? and if you put YES then you are going own that gun, if you put NO then you want to resell.


On the gun form, it asks you, are you the buyer? well that means to me, you are going own it and not resell for profit, if you put no then you are NOT the buyer, and wanting to resell. Sorry little confusing.
 

vt357

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That's basically how I'm interpreting the law.

The other person seems to believe that you can do this as long as it's not your primary source of income. If it's only income that's not your primary source he says it's fine to do, but I find that hard to believe.

Ask him if I make $1,000,000 a year at my day job, and make $500,000 selling guns on the side without a license if that's ok. It's not my primary source of income, it's just a little walking around money... I'm pretty sure the ATF would come down hard on a situation like that.

But I also think it is OK to occasionally buy a gun solely for resale. Think about it. If you go to an estate auction and they've got a rare gun that's worth $10,000. You don't want it for yourself, but nobody else realizes it's valuable, so you buy it for $500. Is it illegal to now sell that gun at a profit?

There's definitely a fine line there somewhere in between. And if you are anywhere close to that line you better get your FFL before you get a federally funded vacation.

IANAL
 

grylnsmn

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Ask him if I make $1,000,000 a year at my day job, and make $500,000 selling guns on the side without a license if that's ok. It's not my primary source of income, it's just a little walking around money... I'm pretty sure the ATF would come down hard on a situation like that.

But I also think it is OK to occasionally buy a gun solely for resale. Think about it. If you go to an estate auction and they've got a rare gun that's worth $10,000. You don't want it for yourself, but nobody else realizes it's valuable, so you buy it for $500. Is it illegal to now sell that gun at a profit?

There's definitely a fine line there somewhere in between. And if you are anywhere close to that line you better get your FFL before you get a federally funded vacation.

IANAL
I was going to use a similar example myself.

You can't even use the "did you ever shoot it" criteria, because not everyone buys guns for shooting. Some people actually collect guns, and might buy a firearm purely for its collector's value, and then later sell it again at a profit for a variety of reasons. For many such guns, the value decreases if you do fire it.

There's no clear line, and so it would likely boil down to how good is your lawyer if they ever come after you.
 

TFred

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Originally Posted by ocholsteroc
All I know is that, on the form when you buy a gun, it ask are you the buyer or no? and if you put YES then you are going own that gun, if you put NO then you want to resell.


On the gun form, it asks you, are you the buyer? well that means to me, you are going own it and not resell for profit, if you put no then you are NOT the buyer, and wanting to resell. Sorry little confusing.
You are free to think whatever you want. However, you are clearly adding new meaning to the word "buy" that does not exist in any other context.

Unless you have some reference that clearly supports your new definition of "buy" to mean what you are saying ("if you ever intend to dispose of the item, then you are not 'buying' it"), you should probably not repeat it very much, or someone is going to call you on it.

TFred
 

tkd2006

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I would also think it depends on the quanity of gun being purchased.
example: if i go to a gunshow and buy 5 Glock 26s from Trader Jerry and then next week im at the gunshow
trying to sell the same 5 Glocks then i would think that is illegal.

However if you use the example of the estate sale and buy a gun a low price because someone does not know
what they have and resell it that would be ok.
 

Thundar

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I am talking about from a private sale, If you buy a used gun, do not like it, you can sell it. But if you just BUY a brand new gun from a dealer and just sell it for profit without test firing it/using it, IMO its illgeal, because you are doing so for profit without a FFL.

I am not a lawyer and do not know anything.

If person A went to the gun show, bought 10 mosin nagants 91/30's @ $90 each, and sold them all in a private sale for say $120each, he is making a profit with out a FFL. Now if he shot them, and DID NOT LIKE THEM. Then its just a private sale of a gun. But he has the intention of buying for resale without FFL.

Again not a lawyer.

Collectors buy sell and trade with the intent of improving their collection. Where is the collectors line?
 

wrightme

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Originally Posted by ocholsteroc
All I know is that, on the form when you buy a gun, it ask are you the buyer or no? and if you put YES then you are going own that gun, if you put NO then you want to resell.


On the gun form, it asks you, are you the buyer? well that means to me, you are going own it and not resell for profit, if you put no then you are NOT the buyer, and wanting to resell. Sorry little confusing.
As already mentioned, if you are buying the firearm, you ARE the buyer. EVEN IF YOU MAY RESELL.

If someone else gives you money to purchase a firearm, because they are not legally able to, you are not the buyer.


Also: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...n-X-number-of-guns-require-a-dealer-s-license
 

wrightme

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I would also think it depends on the quanity of gun being purchased.
example: if i go to a gunshow and buy 5 Glock 26s from Trader Jerry and then next week im at the gunshow
trying to sell the same 5 Glocks then i would think that is illegal.
I find that to be an unsupportable think.
 

curtiswr

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I would also think it depends on the quanity of gun being purchased.
example: if i go to a gunshow and buy 5 Glock 26s from Trader Jerry and then next week im at the gunshow
trying to sell the same 5 Glocks then i would think that is illegal.

Bought them for placement throughout your jewelry store. Other employees that you trusted them to did not like the grip length and proved terribly inefficient with them at the range. Trade in value in returning them to Trader Jerry's was too low.

What about the people that bought 10 AR's in all the Obama election frenzy then sold 8 when it calmed down?
 
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PT111

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Seeral years ago two little girls set up a lemonade stand in their backyard that adjoined a golf course where a PGA tournament was being held. With nothing better to do the TV folks started focusing on how much business the two little girls were doing as it was a hot week. They started out doing a couple hundred dollars worth of business for the first day. On Saturday the little stand did around $3,000 in business. Things were going great for the two little girls and their lemonade stand in their back yard. Sunday morning when they got ready to set up the Tax man was waiting on them.

The moral of this story is that as long as you buy/sell a gun here and there they aren't going to worry with you but get to doing it too much and they are going to want their cut. Technically the cut off line is zero but there is no line on when they will try to enforce it. Show up at a gun show with a table full of new guns and a sign saying private sale; you can expect a visit.
 
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