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Indiana First State to Allow Citizens to Shoot Law Enforcement Officers

lysander6

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You know for all the nightmares the drug wars have caused I am all for at least reducing dramatically the war non drugs. Lets say to the level of take it when we find it, offer rehab, and if you commit a crime while on drugs you get an enhanced sentence. Sounds good to me.

I have to say I never understand this notion of enhancing or expanding punishment for a criminal's state of mind. It is the same reason I think that drunk driving is not a crime but a pre-crime. Do we add a penalty if someone had a traffic accident because they lit a cigarette, grabbed a drumstick that fell to the floor or became distracted by children in the rear seat that led to an accident? Only if it involves illicit vegetables or too much legal alcohol.

Let's try something novel, let's prosecute for an actual crime against person or property. Victimless crimes should not be prosecuted, period.

We can always take it to the next level if it all about safety on the highways for instance by reducing the national speed limit to 5MPH and making all persons in a car wear helmets. Nearly half of all vehicular brain injuries are from head trauma ergo the ridiculous suggestion about helmets.

None of this is about the drug war, that is a distraction; it is all about the constant enhancement and ratcheting of state power against the individual. One reason why the Indiana law is rather refreshing.
 
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zack991

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I have this typed up and on my front door just encase. 100% for it, if your going to kick down my door for your safety and mine PLEASE PLEASE make sure it is the correct address and the excuse for doing an entry on my home is based on evidence. Sorry my family's safety and my own come first ever time.

If cops want to serve me a warrant, please knock -- I DO NOT want to inadvertently shoot you! If you do not knock and failure to properly announce yourself, you render me incapable of discerning whether you are law-enforcement or law-breakers. I have a son! I cannot "assume the best" when gangs have broken into homes around here and just shoot people. If I have any doubts, I WILL shoot. That is not bad on me for defending my home. That is bad on law enforcement for being STUPID about executing no-knock warrants.

Do not be stupid. Please knock. Thanks!


“Already a couple of the faithful have sent in checks for a foundation memorial to the innocents who perished at the hands of the ninja at Waco. … I have been criticized by referring to our federal masked men as “ninja” … Let us reflect upon the fact that a man who covers his face shows reason to be ashamed of what he is doing. A man who takes it upon himself to shed blood while concealing his identity is a revolting perversion of the warrior ethic. It has long been my conviction that a masked man with a gun is a target. I see no reason to change that view.”

jeff cooper
 
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Freedom First

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Thanks!

I went to Guerena's memorial service in Tucson at his house and his body was hit in the periphery about 22+ times with nearly 71 rounds expended by the murderous SWAT team while his wife and toddler were in the house. It took G an hour and a half to die b/c the thugs refused to permit paramedics into an "unsecure" house. Obviously, if the SWAT team had been accurate he would have died sooner. They were most likely in a situation they weren't acquainted with from their usual cold-blooded homicides draped in officer safety. There were rounds as high as 12 feet and a half dozen in the neighbor's house. It appeared that G was less than 20 feet from the front door of HIS house when he was gunned down by the clown posse.

All SWAT officers were exonerated, of course: https://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/category/jose-guerena-case/ It is rare when the thin black and blue line is held to account and if the widow's lawsuit wins, the cops don't pay but the city residents will through increased taxes.

In particular, read McDaniel's 5.2 update (best coverage of the case). It appears that the SWAT team did not even conduct on-site surveillance prior to the potential arrest of this "dangerous cartel gunman".

This can happen to anyone on this board.

I always appreciate knowledge from someone close to an event. Thanks for the link. When I first read about this I knew it stunk of bad LEO, either in training or just plain criminal behavior.

This is the sort of case where local armed Americans should head over to the local PD in person and demand the right thing be done: firing, charges filed, convictions and time in the big house for ol' Johnny Law. Don't accept the lines and the lies from those who "Protect and serve" if it's BS. Push back. They aren't used to it and they may well cave at the first sign of resistance from the populace. We need to watch and control those who are supposed to be our Peace Officers. These men clearly broke the peace. Bust them.
 

Freedom First

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I have this typed up and on my front door just encase. 100% for it, if your going to kick down my door for your safety and mine PLEASE PLEASE make sure it is the correct address and the excuse for doing an entry on my home is based on evidence. Sorry my family's safety and my own come first ever time.

If cops want to serve me a warrant, please knock -- I DO NOT want to inadvertently shoot you! If you do not knock and failure to properly announce yourself, you render me incapable of discerning whether you are law-enforcement or law-breakers. I have a son! I cannot "assume the best" when gangs have broken into homes around here and just shoot people. If I have any doubts, I WILL shoot. That is not bad on me for defending my home. That is bad on law enforcement for being STUPID about executing no-knock warrants.

Do not be stupid. Please knock. Thanks!


“Already a couple of the faithful have sent in checks for a foundation memorial to the innocents who perished at the hands of the ninja at Waco. … I have been criticized by referring to our federal masked men as “ninja” … Let us reflect upon the fact that a man who covers his face shows reason to be ashamed of what he is doing. A man who takes it upon himself to shed blood while concealing his identity is a revolting perversion of the warrior ethic. It has long been my conviction that a masked man with a gun is a target. I see no reason to change that view.”

jeff cooper

Good idea and a fine quote there.
 

MamabearCali

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I have to say I never understand this notion of enhancing or expanding punishment for a criminal's state of mind. It is the same reason I think that drunk driving is not a crime but a pre-crime. Do we add a penalty if someone had a traffic accident because they lit a cigarette, grabbed a drumstick that fell to the floor or became distracted by children in the rear seat that led to an accident? Only if it involves illicit vegetables or too much legal alcohol.

Let's try something novel, let's prosecute for an actual crime against person or property. Victimless crimes should not be prosecuted, period.
I agree with you mostly (hate crimes etc). In the case of substance abuse the person took a substance they knew could effect their state of mind willingly (usually with the idea that it would cloud their judgement) and someone got hurt as a direct result of their actions.....not a victimless situation. Now if we find three college kids smoking a joint, I don't care if they want to throw their brain cells away I can't help them there. But if they get into a car and smash up my minivan because they were being stupid...that is different. And we do add penalties when a person is "distracted" while driving and thus causes an accident. They usually get an additional citation.
 

OC for ME

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I agree with you mostly (hate crimes etc). In the case of substance abuse the person took a substance they knew could effect their state of mind willingly (usually with the idea that it would cloud their judgement) and someone got hurt as a direct result of their actions.....not a victimless situation. Now if we find three college kids smoking a joint, I don't care if they want to throw their brain cells away I can't help them there. But if they get into a car and smash up my minivan because they were being stupid...that is different. And we do add penalties when a person is "distracted" while driving and thus causes an accident. They usually get an additional citation.
And if they do no harm while drunk or high?
 

MamabearCali

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Well if they sit in their house and eat potato chips--I don't care. Do I think drugs are a good ideaNo!, heck I have never been drunk or smoked so much as one cigarette. But a certain portion of a population is always going to want to experiment and do stupid stuff. I think the drug war has been a dismal failure and has done terrible thing to our country to the point that the effects of criminalization of the drugs are far worse on society than the drugs themselves. It is my opinion, but I think concentrating on treatment instead of punishment would be much more effective to end the problem of drug abuse.
 

Jack House

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And if they do no harm while drunk or high?
If they are driving while intoxicated, is that not tantamount to grabbing a gun with your 'bugger hook on the bang switch,' safety off and pointing it in random directions carelessly?
 

ManInBlack

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The title of that article was an example of yellow journalism, pure and simple. Nowhere in the law are citizens granted plenary authority to "shoot cops." It merely acknowledges what the Indiana Supreme Court disregarded: over 1000 years of Anglo-Saxon common law tradition, and over 100 years of United States Supreme Court precedent. Everyone has the inherent right to self-defense against criminal aggression, whether the aggressor is a common highwayman or one who wears the State's costume jewelry upon his chest.

http://constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm
“Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306. This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: “Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed.”


“An arrest made with a defective warrant, or one issued without affidavit, or one that fails to allege a crime is within jurisdiction, and one who is being arrested, may resist arrest and break away. lf the arresting officer is killed by one who is so resisting, the killing will be no more than an involuntary manslaughter.” Housh v. People, 75 111. 491; reaffirmed and quoted in State v. Leach, 7 Conn. 452; State v. Gleason, 32 Kan. 245; Ballard v. State, 43 Ohio 349; State v Rousseau, 241 P. 2d 447; State v. Spaulding, 34 Minn. 3621.


“When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justified.” Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1.

“These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence.” Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.


“An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).


“Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense.” (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).


“One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).


“Story affirmed the right of self-defense by persons held illegally. In his own writings, he had admitted that ‘a situation could arise in which the checks-and-balances principle ceased to work and the various branches of government concurred in a gross usurpation.’ There would be no usual remedy by changing the law or passing an amendment to the Constitution, should the oppressed party be a minority. Story concluded, ‘If there be any remedy at all ... it is a remedy never provided for by human institutions.’ That was the ‘ultimate right of all human beings in extreme cases to resist oppression, and to apply force against ruinous injustice.’” (From Mutiny on the Amistad by Howard Jones, Oxford University Press, 1987, an account of the reading of the decision in the case by Justice Joseph Story of the Supreme Court.


As for grounds for arrest: “The carrying of arms in a quiet, peaceable, and orderly manner, concealed on or about the person, is not a breach of the peace. Nor does such an act of itself, lead to a breach of the peace.” (Wharton’s Criminal and Civil Procedure, 12th Ed., Vol.2: Judy v. Lashley, 5 W. Va. 628, 41 S.E. 197)
 
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OC for ME

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If they are driving while intoxicated, is that not tantamount to grabbing a gun with your 'bugger hook on the bang switch,' safety off and pointing it in random directions carelessly?
No.

If the gun does not discharge and you are in your home....no harm, no foul, no crime....stupid, yes.

BAC of .08, heck, even 1.0 does not necessarily mean that you or anyone else for that matter are ....blah blah blah.

No harm, no foul, no crime.
 

Xulld

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AN ACT to amend the Indiana Code concerning criminal law and procedure.

Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the State of Indiana:

SECTION 1. IC 35-41-3-2, AS AMENDED BY P.L.189-2006, SECTION 1, IS AMENDED TO READ AS FOLLOWS [EFFECTIVE UPON PASSAGE]: Sec. 2. (a) In enacting this section, the general assembly finds and declares that it is the policy of this state to recognize the unique character of a citizen's home and to ensure that a citizen feels secure in his or her own home against unlawful intrusion by another individual or a public servant. By reaffirming the long standing right of a citizen to protect his or her home against unlawful intrusion, however, the general assembly does not intend to diminish in any way the other robust self defense rights that citizens of this state have always enjoyed. Accordingly, the general assembly also finds and declares that it is the policy of this state that people have a right to defend themselves and third parties from physical harm and crime. The purpose of this section is to provide the citizens of this state with a lawful means of carrying out this policy.
(b) As used in this section, "public servant" means a person described in IC 35-41-1-17, IC 35-31.5-2-129, or IC 35-31.5-2-185.
(c) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another any other person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force.

However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.
(b) (d) A person:
(1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another any other person; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.
(c) (e) With respect to property other than a dwelling, curtilage, or an occupied motor vehicle, a person is justified in using reasonable force against another any other person if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to immediately prevent or terminate the other person's trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in the person's possession, lawfully in possession of a member of the person's immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property the person has authority to protect. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
only if that force is justified under subsection (a). (c).
(d) (f) A person is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another any other person and does not have a duty to retreat if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or stop the other person from hijacking, attempting to hijack, or otherwise seizing or attempting to seize unlawful control of an aircraft in flight. For purposes of this subsection, an aircraft is considered to be in flight while the aircraft is:
(1) on the ground in Indiana:
(A) after the doors of the aircraft are closed for takeoff; and
(B) until the aircraft takes off;
(2) in the airspace above Indiana; or
(3) on the ground in Indiana:
(A) after the aircraft lands; and
(B) before the doors of the aircraft are opened after landing.
(e) (g) Notwithstanding subsections (a), (b) and (c), (c) through (e), a person is not justified in using force if:
(1) the person is committing or is escaping after the commission of a crime;
(2) the person provokes unlawful action by another person with intent to cause bodily injury to the other person; or
(3) the person has entered into combat with another person or is the initial aggressor unless the person withdraws from the encounter and communicates to the other person the intent to do so and the other person nevertheless continues or threatens to continue unlawful action.
(f) (h) Notwithstanding subsection (d), (f), a person is not justified in using force if the person:
(1) is committing, or is escaping after the commission of, a crime;
(2) provokes unlawful action by another person, with intent to cause bodily injury to the other person; or
(3) continues to combat another person after the other person withdraws from the encounter and communicates the other person's intent to stop hijacking, attempting to hijack, or otherwise seizing or attempting to seize unlawful control of an aircraft in flight.
(i) A person is justified in using reasonable force against a public servant if the person reasonably believes the force is necessary to:
(1) protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force;
(2) prevent or terminate the public servant's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle; or
(3) prevent or terminate the public servant's unlawful trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in the person's possession, lawfully in possession of a member of the person's immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property the person has authority to protect.
(j) Notwithstanding subsection (i), a person is not justified in using force against a public servant if:
(1) the person is committing or is escaping after the commission of a crime;
(2) the person provokes action by the public servant with intent to cause bodily injury to the public servant;
(3) the person has entered into combat with the public servant or is the initial aggressor, unless the person withdraws from the encounter and communicates to the public servant the intent to do so and the public servant nevertheless continues

or threatens to continue unlawful action; or
(4) the person reasonably believes the public servant is:
(A) acting lawfully; or
(B) engaged in the lawful execution of the public servant's official duties.
(k) A person is not justified in using deadly force against a public servant whom the person knows or reasonably should know is a public servant unless:
(1) the person reasonably believes that the public servant is:
(A) acting unlawfully; or
(B) not engaged in the execution of the public servant's official duties; and
(2) the force is reasonably necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person.
SECTION 2. An emergency is declared for this act.
Figured id post the actual verbiage.


Now if we could just get all such dynamic entries made illegal outside of extremely specific guidelines.
 
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davidmcbeth

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From Article:

The first of its kind in the United States, the law was adopted after the state Supreme Court went too far in one of its rulings last year, according to supporters. The case in question involved a man who assaulted an officer during a domestic violence call. The court ruled that there was “no right to reasonably resist unlawful entry by police officers.”

The IN S.Ct ruled recently that you cannot resist an unlawful entry ... guess that ruling is down the toilet ... I'm loving this law ... of course, common law already gives you this right in most other states I think...IN had to pass this to overcome idiots wearing robes (and not KKK robes to clarify -- as IN is KKK central)
 

sudden valley gunner

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Threatening life is a damn good reason to shoot, particularly under Common Law.

Exactly it's a shame they have to pass an extra law to protect what is already our right in common law and supreme court decisions.

Too bad Justice Sanders (re-elect Sanders Please!) was the lone dissent in Valentine vs City of Spokane when our Supreme Court did away with this common law right ( I don't believe they can take it away by just saying we don't have it anymore though).
 

Gunslinger

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Cops have no "right" to attempt to kidnap a person under the ruse of arresting them if the arrest itself is legally defective. An individual has the right to resist a violent felony with force sufficient to stop the crime, and that includes the use of force up to and including deadly force.

Case law has many variations of that conclusion. Most of them stem from Common Law concepts. Indiana was placed in the unfortunate position of having to legislate out of the hole their supreme court threw them into.

But the law does not "allow citizens to shoot law enforcement officers" regardless of how much some folks would like to characterize the law. It codifies what used to be Common Law dictate regarding self defense. It has the collateral efect of putting cops on notice that they had better have all their ducks in a row before pulling a home invasion.

stay safe.

This is way beyond common law. It is settled law.

“Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306. This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: “Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed.”

“An arrest made with a defective warrant, or one issued without affidavit, or one that fails to allege a crime is within jurisdiction, and one who is being arrested, may resist arrest and break away. lf the arresting officer is killed by one who is so resisting, the killing will be no more than an involuntary manslaughter.” Housh v. People, 75 111. 491; reaffirmed and quoted in State v. Leach, 7 Conn. 452; State v. Gleason, 32 Kan. 245; Ballard v. State, 43 Ohio 349; State v Rousseau, 241 P. 2d 447; State v. Spaulding, 34 Minn. 3621.

“When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justified.” Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1.

“These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence.” Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.

“An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).

“Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense.” (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).

“One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).

“Story affirmed the right of self-defense by persons held illegally. In his own writings, he had admitted that ‘a situation could arise in which the checks-and-balances principle ceased to work and the various branches of government concurred in a gross usurpation.’ There would be no usual remedy by changing the law or passing an amendment to the Constitution, should the oppressed party be a minority. Story concluded, ‘If there be any remedy at all ... it is a remedy never provided for by human institutions.’ That was the ‘ultimate right of all human beings in extreme cases to resist oppression, and to apply force against ruinous injustice.’” (From Mutiny on the Amistad by Howard Jones, Oxford University Press, 1987, an account of the reading of the decision in the case by Justice Joseph Story of the Supreme Court.

As for grounds for arrest: “The carrying of arms in a quiet, peaceable, and orderly manner, concealed on or about the person, is not a breach of the peace. Nor does such an act of itself, lead to a breach of the peace.” (Wharton’s Criminal and Civil Procedure, 12th Ed., Vol.2: Judy v. Lashley, 5 W. Va. 628, 41 S.E. 197)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

brutus1776

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I agree with you mostly (hate crimes etc). In the case of substance abuse the person took a substance they knew could effect their state of mind willingly (usually with the idea that it would cloud their judgement) and someone got hurt as a direct result of their actions.....not a victimless situation... But if they get into a car and smash up my minivan because they were being stupid...that is different. And we do add penalties when a person is "distracted" while driving and thus causes an accident. They usually get an additional citation.

But what is the crime? the destruction of life and/or property or the content of ones blood?
If you follow your logic to its logical ends, we must also ban caffeine in both pill form as well as soft drinks and energy drinks, alcohol, cough medicine, benadryll, cold medicine, or even pigging out a dinner time that might lead to being a bit tired when getting behind the wheel.

To me its quite simple, you don't prosecute someone for the content of their blood, you prosecute them for their actions. While alcohol and the like can make people do some dumb things, it is simply not an evil in its self. (mala in se). Because someone was impaired by an illegal or legal substance, it doesn't make the evil (the crime against person/property) any worse.

Maybe I'm over looking something, but I dont think anyone is any more dead if he is shot by a sober murderer or a stoned murderer. The end result is the same. And the crime is murder, not being intoxicated.
 
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Jack House

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No.

If the gun does not discharge and you are in your home....no harm, no foul, no crime....stupid, yes.

BAC of .08, heck, even 1.0 does not necessarily mean that you or anyone else for that matter are ....blah blah blah.

No harm, no foul, no crime.
No.

When driving drunk, you're not in your own home, you're out on the street with other people. The comparison does not work for that simple fact.
 

Xulld

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But what is the crime? the destruction of life and/or property or the content of ones blood?
If you follow your logic to its logical ends, we must also ban caffeine in both pill form as well as soft drinks and energy drinks, alcohol, cough medicine, benadryll, cold medicine, or even pigging out a dinner time that might lead to being a bit tired when getting behind the wheel.

To me its quite simple, you don't prosecute someone for the content of their blood, you prosecute them for their actions. While alcohol and the like can make people do some dumb things, it is simply not an evil in its self. (mala in se). Because someone was impaired by an illegal or legal substance, it doesn't make the evil (the crime against person/property) any worse.

Maybe I'm over looking something, but I dont think anyone is any more dead if he is shot by a sober murderer or a stoned murderer. The end result is the same. And the crime is murder, not being intoxicated.

Not even close. Negligence starts with responsibility, and the examples of substances you give do not come even close if used properly to that of alcohol. Alcohol when consumed for recreation has as its sole purpose the intoxication of the individual. Small amounts are allowed, becuase we have found that in small doses the amount of impairment is mild, and not in and of itself a detriment to the safety of motor vehicle transit.

Just earlier I criticized someone for claiming a slippery slope fallacy when no distinction could be shown to exist between the examples provided. In this case your slippery slope argument IS a fallacy because alcohol just like cold medicine, if misused, or used in quantities which cause a loss of capability while driving are not comparative to other substances which do not cause this same level of loss of control.

No, alcohol is not evil in itself, but that is also a fallacy, no one was saying alcohol is evil, alcohol is not banned btw, in the same way that driving 100MPH on in 60MPH zone is reckless and dangerous, consuming too much alcohol and driving is dangerous even if nothing happens engaging in that behavior it is still negligent, and reckless. Experimental science can demonstrate the effects of alcohol on response times, the statistics are clear, our understanding of the interactions are clear, and all such substances should not be taken while engaging in a activities that put other peoples lives at risk.

To me its quite simple, you don't prosecute someone for the content of their blood, you prosecute them for their actions.
Your right, we dont. The action of getting behind the wheel while impaired is what you are being changed for.


Edit: I want to be clear, I do not support increasing punishment for state of mind, or intoxication, however on the flip side, I do not support a lessening of sentence based on willful intoxication either . . .
 
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brutus1776

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No.

When driving drunk, you're not in your own home, you're out on the street with other people. The comparison does not work for that simple fact.


People do lots of silly things in public.
Hell, the left thinks the mere fact that someone might possess a gun without a government examination of their mental capacity is grounds to conclude that the person is a danger to society, much like you are painting anyone who drinks in public

I had an alcoholic grandfather. He drove home hammered from the bar, about 10 miles every day, and never even once got a ticket in over 60 years. How can this guy be a threat to society? How can it be likened to pointing a firearm in condition zero at someone? How can a completely drunk person driving perfectly fine be in the same category as a guy who is reading the newspaper and eating lunch when driving, and swerving into people, hitting pedestrians and engaging in head on collisions? Its a silly notion.

I propose you run to lobby your legislature to pass laws against driving will medicated with cough medicine or while overly stuffed as well and call this criminal negligence. You must also lobby for removing car radios and all accessories as these are distractions from the task at hand and after all, since they exist, it means everyone will be fiddling with them incessantly.

Wait, I better shut up before anyone gets any ideas....
 
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