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Few open carry questions to clear things up for me

ksanderson1981

Regular Member
Joined
May 2, 2013
Messages
11
Location
wyoming, MI
I am new at open carrying my hand gun. I have had my CPL for almost five years now so I am familiar with those laws. I guess a few questions that I have are:
1. Can I open carry at a stadium seating more than 2500?
2. Can I open carry into a bank?
3. I know when I open carry and enter my vehicle it is then considered to be concealed. But what if I am riding my motorcycle. Is there some kind of loophole that could get me in trouble if I open carry while riding? I only ask because when I try to conceal carry with an IWB holster my shirt blows up and reveals my gun anyways. The only way I have been able to carry on my bike concealed is if I wear a shoulder holster with a pull over jacket or sweatshirt on.
4. What about doing open carry at a place like buffalo wild wings or a similar restaurant?

I am pretty sure some of the CPL laws have changed as well since I got my license and I am going to my law refresher course in two weeks for my renewal so I will be updated on them.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
 

Bronson

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,126
Location
Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
1. Can I open carry at a stadium seating more than 2500? 2. Can I open carry into a bank? 4. What about doing open carry at a place like buffalo wild wings or a similar restaurant?

750.234d

Sec. 234d.
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.


(b) A church or other house of religious worship.


(c) A court.


(d) A theatre.


(e) A sports arena.


(f) A day care center.


(g) A hospital.


(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:


(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.


(b) A peace officer.


(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.


(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the
owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.


3. I know when I open carry and enter my vehicle it is then considered to be concealed. But what if I am riding my motorcycle. Is there some kind of loophole that could get me in trouble if I open carry while riding? I only ask because when I try to conceal carry with an IWB holster my shirt blows up and reveals my gun anyways. The only way I have been able to carry on my bike concealed is if I wear a shoulder holster with a pull over jacket or sweatshirt on.

750.227

. . .

(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

There is nothing in MI law that prescribes how a CPL holder must carry their pistol in a vehicle. So with a CPL you can tape it to your forehead while in a vehicle and be within the law.

Bronson
 
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zigziggityzoo

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
1,543
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
To answer more in plain English -
I am new at open carrying my hand gun. I have had my CPL for almost five years now so I am familiar with those laws. I guess a few questions that I have are:
1. Can I open carry at a stadium seating more than 2500?

Yes.

2. Can I open carry into a bank?
Yes.

3. I know when I open carry and enter my vehicle it is then considered to be concealed. But what if I am riding my motorcycle. Is there some kind of loophole that could get me in trouble if I open carry while riding? I only ask because when I try to conceal carry with an IWB holster my shirt blows up and reveals my gun anyways. The only way I have been able to carry on my bike concealed is if I wear a shoulder holster with a pull over jacket or sweatshirt on.

On your motorcycle is considered "In a vehicle" in the eyes of the law and requires a CPL. It's sort of a weird gray area, but there is no loophole to get caught up in. If you have a CPL, you're good.

4. What about doing open carry at a place like buffalo wild wings or a similar restaurant?

Open Carry is LAWFUL there with CPL, but they can still kick you out if they want to, as private property rules apply.
 

Evil Creamsicle

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
1,264
Location
Police State, USA
To answer more in plain English - ...

Zig, good information as always. [PS, good to see you online again]

I believe, for clarity's sake, that your second "Yes" about OC at a bank also should have said "Yes, only with a CPL", correct?

And also, this does not apply to a Federal Reserve Bank. Federal Reserve Banks are treated like Federal property, and you are not allowed to have a gun there, period. You'll almost never run into this since there aren't that many of them but, its good information to keep in mind.
 

zigziggityzoo

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
1,543
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Zig, good information as always. [PS, good to see you online again]

I believe, for clarity's sake, that your second "Yes" about OC at a bank also should have said "Yes, only with a CPL", correct?

And also, this does not apply to a Federal Reserve Bank. Federal Reserve Banks are treated like Federal property, and you are not allowed to have a gun there, period. You'll almost never run into this since there aren't that many of them but, its good information to keep in mind.

I sort of assumed OP had a CPL since he said so, which is why both 1) and 2) were "yes"
 

DanM

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
1,928
Location
West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
To reinforce what Zig said:
1. Can I open carry at a stadium seating more than 2500?

Yes. But, to clarify, you seem to be conflating two different CC PFZ's in the law: "stadium" and "entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more". There's no seating capacity definition for "stadium" in the law covering CC prohibition.

In other words, not only may you (and must you, if you want to carry at all) OC (with CPL) in a stadium seating more than 2,500, but you may (and must, if you want to carry) OC in *any* stadium.

For privately-owned stadia, you must comply with "no weapons" signs or a request to leave the premises.

In the case of public stadia, even those leased to private entities for an event offered to the public, "no firearms" signs or rules and requests for you to leave due to firearm carry are illegal. If you are requested to leave, you may inform them that their regulations or rules on firearms are illegal and unenforceable due to state preemption, and you can see if they back off of their request. However, if they persist, I suggest you inform them you are leaving not voluntarily but due to their implied threat of illegal prosecution, then leave. Then come here and inform us and we'll talk about next steps with the public entity involved.

2. Can I open carry into a bank?

Unqualified yes (if you have CPL), except for federal banks. Federal laws on carry onto federal property are another subject.

3. I know when I open carry and enter my vehicle it is then considered to be concealed. But what if I am riding my motorcycle.

The law is simply that carry in a vehicle by a person without a CPL is *prohibited* and there is a penalty for it. The law does not say or imply it is "considered concealed". In fact the law expressly clarifies the prohibited carry (in a vehicle, by a person without a CPL) might be "concealed or otherwise". The law doesn't "consider it concealed" it just "considers it prohibited (except for CPL holders)".

That clarification being said, there are attorneys and non-attorneys (including me) who argue that the plain language of the law only deals with "in a vehicle", not "on a vehicle". Since you are not in the motorcycle normally, the prohibition doesn't apply. However, there have been threats to prosecute, so all of us advise to have a CPL if you OC on a motorcycle.

Yes, you may OC on a motorcycle if you have a CPL. That is clear.

4. What about doing open carry at a place like buffalo wild wings or a similar restaurant?

Yes. With a CPL, you may OC without worrying whether or not a place has primary income from sales of alcohol by the glass.

Basically, in the state of Michigan (except for federal property, which is another subject) if you have a CPL you may open carry anywhere except casinos, courtrooms, or the *secure area* of a jail. You must obey private property signs or requests prohibiting your firearm, or you risk a charge of trespassing.

I am not a lawyer. The above is my view of when and how I OC, and what I know of others' stated OC practices. Consult an attorney on these opinions if you want to clear up questions or doubts, before you take upon yourself the risks associated with open carry.
 
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Hevymetal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2012
Messages
261
Location
Clinton Twp
Basically, in the state of Michigan (except for federal property, which is another subject) if you have a CPL you may open carry anywhere except casinos, courtrooms, or the *secure area* of a jail. You must obey private property signs or requests prohibiting your firearm, or you risk a charge of trespassing.

Adding the *secure area* of an airport, past the TSA checkpoint, off limits OC or CC.
 

DanM

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
1,928
Location
West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
DanM said:
Basically, in the state of Michigan (except for federal property, which is another subject) if you have a CPL you may open carry anywhere except casinos, courtrooms, or the *secure area* of a jail. You must obey private property signs or requests prohibiting your firearm, or you risk a charge of trespassing.

Adding the *secure area* of an airport, past the TSA checkpoint, off limits OC or CC.

That falls under the "federal property" exception I mentioned. The distinction I mention between "state" and "federal" is as regards control and jurisdiction of law over the property, not necessarily "title-holder", "lease-holder", "possessor", or other descriptors applying to a property.

With regard to firearms carry, Federal statute clearly asserts federal, rather than state or other, control and jurisdiction over airport "sterile" areas (that's the area you are referring to):

Code of Federal Regulations, "§ 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals."
. . . an individual may not have a weapon, explosive, or incendiary, on or about the individual's person or accessible property . . . (2) When the individual is entering or in a sterile area . . .
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...9.1.3.5.9;idno=49;cc=ecfr#49:9.1.3.5.9.2.10.6
 
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ksanderson1981

Regular Member
Joined
May 2, 2013
Messages
11
Location
wyoming, MI
Thank you

Thank you to everyone that was able to answer these questions for me. I appreciate the time you all took to do so and I now feel much more comfortable knowing. I am glad that I happen to stumble on this website a couple weeks ago.
 

DanM

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
1,928
Location
West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
Thank you to everyone that was able to answer these questions for me. I appreciate the time you all took to do so and I now feel much more comfortable knowing. I am glad that I happen to stumble on this website a couple weeks ago.

Be nice to meet you at a gathering, seminar, gun turn-in, rally, or counter-rally event. Hope you attend one of those soon!
 

jeffrey-r

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
110
Location
Warren, MI
The law is simply that carry in a vehicle by a person without a CPL is *prohibited* and there is a penalty for it. The law does not say or imply it is "considered concealed". In fact the law expressly clarifies the prohibited carry (in a vehicle, by a person without a CPL) might be "concealed or otherwise". The law doesn't "consider it concealed" it just "considers it prohibited (except for CPL holders)".

Thank you for explaining it this way. It always bugs me when people explain entering a vehicle as "now it's considered concealed." No, it's prohibited because carrying in a vehicle (concealed, open, or taped to your forehead) is illegal unless you have a CPL.
 

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
speaking of college property. a community college that has a a policy in the student handbook stating all firearms are banned on school property is unenforceable with the exception of classrooms and dormitories, correct?
 

Raggs

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Messages
1,181
Location
Wild Wild West Michigan
speaking of college property. a community college that has a a policy in the student handbook stating all firearms are banned on school property is unenforceable with the exception of classrooms and dormitories, correct?

I would think legally they would not be able to do anything but they could kick the student out for breaking the student rules,
 

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
if they can't do anything legally, they would be outside their authority to kick you out... just like a library. if CADL had the authority to remove people for open carry the court case would have been unnecessary
 
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