Question about an officer demanding identification

bebop4one · Mar 12, 2014

I have a question about RCW 9.41.050. I was looking over the OC pamphlet that's available here on the forums because I'm considering carrying a few copies with me. The language that I have a question about it this:

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so.

I understand what it means. It means that if you are concealing a pistol a police officer has a right to ask you for your CPL. But the language doesn't specify when the officer can't ask for your CPL.

Scenario: An officer sees you open carrying and wants to question you or get identification from you. You inform the officer that you are doing nothing illegal and ask if you are being detained (I'm sure there are other responses you could give). The officer then says that he/she demands to see your CPL if you have one.

What do you do? RCW 9.41.050 doesn't specify a situation where you can refuse the request. You don't want to lie and say that you don't have one (it's only a lie if you do have one I guess). The officer is getting around the not having to provide ID issue by demanding the CPL. Would they be within their right to do so? I get that open carrying doesn't require a CPL but if they see you open carrying it makes sense that you might have one. I've wondered about this and would like an opinion.

ARADCOM · Mar 12, 2014

Can't show it if you don't have it.

bebop4one said:
(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license"

If you are open carrying you are not required to have a CPL, or to have it on you if you have one, so this would not be a situation where a LEO could demand to see your CPL.

Jeff Hayes · Mar 12, 2014

bebop4one said:
I have a question about RCW 9.41.050. I was looking over the OC pamphlet that's available here on the forums because I'm considering carrying a few copies with me. The language that I have a question about it this:

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so.

I understand what it means. It means that if you are concealing a pistol a police officer has a right to ask you for your CPL. But the language doesn't specify when the officer can't ask for your CPL.

Scenario: An officer sees you open carrying and wants to question you or get identification from you. You inform the officer that you are doing nothing illegal and ask if you are being detained (I'm sure there are other responses you could give). The officer then says that he/she demands to see your CPL if you have one.

What do you do? RCW 9.41.050 doesn't specify a situation where you can refuse the request. You don't want to lie and say that you don't have one (it's only a lie if you do have one I guess). The officer is getting around the not having to provide ID issue by demanding the CPL. Would they be within their right to do so? I get that open carrying doesn't require a CPL but if they see you open carrying it makes sense that you might have one. I've wondered about this and would like an opinion.

I normally do not carry my CPL when I am OC nor do I carry my DL when not driving, if you do not have it you can not show it.

bebop4one · Mar 12, 2014

Jeff Hayes said:
I normally do not carry my CPL when I am OC nor do I carry my DL when not driving, if you do not have it you can not show it.

The only reason I'm reluctant to do that is because I don't want any issues getting in and out of my car. Also I don't want an officer to lie and say my weapon is partially concealed. So does that mean when you OC you don't drive?

Fallschirjmäger · Mar 12, 2014

Back in the old days, an honest person would carry openly, but someone who wanted/needed to conceal (as almost any criminal might) required permission do to something that an honest person wouldn't. As with a lot of other things, the meaning seems to have done a 180-degree shift.

Did you know that describing something like the Sistine Chapel as "awful, artificial, an egregious example of what manufactured artwork can be" is actually complimentary?
Awful - Inspiring wonder or awe
Artificial - artfully and skillfully constructed
Egregious - something that is remarkably good
Manufactured - something made by hand, from "manual"
All those mean the opposite of what they were understood to mean long ago.

solus · Mar 13, 2014

bebop4one said:
The only reason I'm reluctant to do that is because I don't want any issues getting in and out of my car. Also I don't want an officer to lie and say my weapon is partially concealed. So does that mean when you OC you don't drive?

as has been espoused on this illustrious forum many many times...

may i help you officer? followed by am i free to go? repeat twice ok, three times if you must and then walk away...

i am sorry to have to inform you, your parents lied to you about a great many things, santa claus, the tooth fairy, Easter bunny, etc. why it is advocated by the membership to carry a recorder...mitigates the lying doesn't it.

though i am shocked you believe a sworn LE would lie about a citizens actions...(sarcasm not withstanding)
ipse...

bebop4one · Mar 13, 2014

I appreciate the feedback but none of these answer my question. What if I don't leave my CPL at home. It's on me and a cop demands to see it. Am I required to give it to him?

ARADCOM · Mar 13, 2014

No!

bebop4one said:
I appreciate the feedback but none of these answer my question. What if I don't leave my CPL at home. It's on me and a cop demands to see it. Am I required to give it to him?

No, you are not.

"display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so."

If you're not required by law to have one or carry it if you do, you can't be required by law to display it.

And you can certainly OC and drive if you leave your CPL in the car, which is the only place you'd be legally required to have it in your possession while OC'ing.

bebop4one · Mar 13, 2014

ARADCOM said:
No, you are not.

"display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so."

If you're not required by law to have one or carry it if you do, you can't be required by law to display it.

And you can certainly OC and drive if you leave your CPL in the car, which is the only place you'd be legally required to have it in your possession while OC'ing.

Good point about leaving it in the car. The moment you enter the car you're covered.

OC for ME · Mar 13, 2014

Nightmare said:
This statute cited says display and not surrender.

Good luck with that one. MO has the same wording. If you are not CCing (you are OCing) you can refuse to "display" your "permit." Not a darn thing the cop can do but arrest you for contempt of cop.

Now, if you are required to have a "permit" on you to OC then you must "display" when a cop "requests" your "permit."

OC for ME · Mar 13, 2014

The difference be between the right word and the almost right word, is the difference between lightning and lightning bug.

sudden valley gunner · Mar 13, 2014

Without PC or RS of a crime the officer is not supposed to stop you to ask for it. They cannot gleam by mere observation that you don't have one so the assumption is to be that you do and they are not supposed to demand to see it.

Difdi · Mar 13, 2014

Fallschirmjäger said:
Back in the old days, an honest person would carry openly, but someone who wanted/needed to conceal (as almost any criminal might) required permission do to something that an honest person wouldn't. As with a lot of other things, the meaning seems to have done a 180-degree shift.

Did you know that describing something like the Sistine Chapel as "awful, artificial, an egregious example of what manufactured artwork can be" is actually complimentary?
Awful - Inspiring wonder or awe
Artificial - artfully and skillfully constructed
Egregious - something that is remarkably good
Manufactured - something made by hand, from "manual"
All those mean the opposite of what they were understood to mean long ago.

Calling someone nice was once grounds for a duel to the death. In the original meaning, fun was a synonym of kill.

Maverick9 · Mar 13, 2014

One thing to remember, and I'm not a fan of teaching LE to be more overly-entitled, is that if an officer -demands- anything in his scope, you should comply, that includes getting out of the car, rolling down the window, or showing ID. You might ask 'sir, am I legally required to do this (or that)', and perhaps get it on video or audio to fight later.

If he or she -asks- you can say 'I'd rather not'.

sudden valley gunner · Mar 13, 2014

Maverick9 said:
One thing to remember, and I'm not a fan of teaching LE to be more overly-entitled, is that if an officer -demands- anything in his scope, you should comply, that includes getting out of the car, rolling down the window, or showing ID. You might ask 'sir, am I legally required to do this (or that)', and perhaps get it on video or audio to fight later.

If he or she -asks- you can say 'I'd rather not'.

Depends on the situation. There have been times they have demanded and I didn't comply, because I knew I was in the right.

Maverick9 · Mar 13, 2014

sudden valley gunner said:
Depends on the situation. There have been times they have demanded and I didn't comply, because I knew I was in the right.

For instance?

Remember an officer doesn't have to explain their RAS. You're walking a dangerous line not to comply with a demand from an armed stranger with a badge.

Jeff Hayes · Mar 13, 2014

bebop4one said:
The only reason I'm reluctant to do that is because I don't want any issues getting in and out of my car. Also I don't want an officer to lie and say my weapon is partially concealed. So does that mean when you OC you don't drive?

I drive I just leave my DL and CPL in the car.

Jeff Hayes · Mar 13, 2014

Maverick9 said:
For instance?

Remember an officer doesn't have to explain their RAS. You're walking a dangerous line not to comply with a demand from an armed stranger with a badge.

In Washington one only has to identify them selves if they are being arrested or cited if you are not being arrested or cited then you do not have to show ID simple as that. When asked for ID my first question is what crime do you suspect me of having committed am committing or are about to commit. If they say none then the Cop gets no ID simple as that.

I am not going to cite because this has been discussed over and over again on this site.

Freedom1Man · Mar 13, 2014

bebop4one said:
SNIP
Scenario: An officer sees you open carrying and wants to question you or get identification from you. You inform the officer that you are doing nothing illegal and ask if you are being detained (I'm sure there are other responses you could give). The officer then says that he/she demands to see your CPL if you have one.

What do you do? RCW 9.41.050 doesn't specify a situation where you can refuse the request. You don't want to lie and say that you don't have one (it's only a lie if you do have one I guess). The officer is getting around the not having to provide ID issue by demanding the CPL. Would they be within their right to do so? I get that open carrying doesn't require a CPL but if they see you open carrying it makes sense that you might have one. I've wondered about this and would like an opinion.

I remind them that I am not required to have a CPL to open carry.

After I caught the "display" and not "surrender" my CPL when required I only removed it from my wallet and held on to it the whole time I was displaying it. I was then asked for photo ID. I asked why. They told me it's because I could have found that CPL on the ground and it could belong to someone else. I then asked him to show me the law that required me to carry any ID and if he had any RAS that I was not the legal holder of the CPL.

They hate that.

bebop4one · Mar 13, 2014

This is obviously a one-off type of scenario. It's just good to be prepared. I think I'll stick with the "I'm not required to have a CPL to open carry" statement and repeat that until they give up and leave.

Question about an officer demanding identification

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