• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

What Virginians MUST take from the Colorado Recall

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Some won't like this and I don't really much care. I am well past the point of polite in listening to people sell the fantasy-land view that wasting a vote for their "better" third-party candidate will ever improve the political climate in the real world.

A post in the well respected "The Volokh Conspiracy" blog today provides a reasoned analysis of what happened in Colorado yesterday. Many good and very important points, well beyond the scope of gun-control and the Second Amendment. I highly recommend the read.

IMHO, this short, almost overlooked blurb is one of the most important points in the entire article:

"Morse barely won re-election in 2010, and might have lost if not for the presence of a Libertarian on the ballot."

Translation: If the utopians in Colorado had not wasted their votes on a third party candidate who did not have a chance to begin with, they never would have HAD to recall the gun-grabbing liberal who WON the election - and rammed these gun-control laws down the throats of the citizens of Colorado.

As I have always said, I am not against better candidates. It is useless to support them in the GENERAL election. It is folly to believe that ANYone is going to get some "message" based on single digit returns. The only message heard in the general election is who wins. The only way to create change in the political climate is to support the better candidates in the primaries*. The disaster of Colorado can and does happen whenever people waste votes on their "better" third-party candidates.

TFred

* Let's do the math... is it easier to win among half the electorate (a primary or convention) or among the entire electorate (a general election)?
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Some won't like this and I don't really much care. I am well past the point of politeness in listening to people sell the fantasy-land view that wasting a vote for their "better" GOP candidate will ever improve the political climate in the real world.

Translation: If the utilitarians in Colorado had not wasted their votes on a Republican who could only "maybe" win if every third-party voter voted for him, they could have elected a good candidate in the first place, whom they wouldn't have HAD to recall.

Your post is riddled with so many fallacies and incorrect assumptions, I'm just going name one: the most obvious is the oft-repeated (and baseless) assumption that most or all who vote Libertarian would have otherwise voted GOP.

Most of the people I know who vote Libertarian don't consider the Republicans any better, and would never vote for one (any more than they'd vote for a D).

You've got this notion of big government leftists being held at bay by an alliance of Republicans and Independents who favor liberty.

But I am not your ally. The GOP is statist, favors big government at every turn, and is my enemy.

Just so we're clear.
 
Last edited:

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Some won't like this and I don't really much care. I am well past the point of politeness in listening to people sell the fantasy-land view that wasting a vote for their "better" GOP candidate will ever improve the political climate in the real world.

Translation: If the utilitarians in Colorado had not wasted their votes on a Republican who could only "maybe" win if every third-party voter voted for him, they could have elected a good candidate in the first place, whom they wouldn't have HAD to recall.

Your post is riddled with so many fallacies and incorrect assumptions, I'm just going name one: the most obvious is the oft-repeated (and baseless) assumption that most or all who vote Libertarian would have otherwise voted GOP.

Most of the people I know who vote Libertarian don't consider the Republicans any better, and would never vote for one (any more than they'd vote for a D).

You've got this notion of big government leftists being held at bay by an alliance of Republicans and Independents who favor liberty.

But I am not your ally. The GOP is statist, favors big government at every turn, and is my enemy.

Just so we're clear.
::FLAG::

My primary point is that NO third party candidate has ever won a major election. Please provide us with an example of a third party candidate that has won a state-wide election.

All your flattery does not address my point: "Fix" the candidates at the primary level and you will have success.

TFred
 
Last edited:

Repeater

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
2,498
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
Here are REAL fixes:

One: Abolish Primaries. Candidates shall be chosen only by members of their own kind in Conventions.

Two: Mandate run-off elections if no one candidate obtains a majority vote.
 

JustaShooter

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2013
Messages
728
Location
NE Ohio
::FLAG::

My primary point is that NO third party candidate has ever won a major election. Please provide us with an example of a third party candidate that has won a state-wide election.

All your flattery does not address my point: "Fix" the candidates at the primary level and you will have success.

TFred

How about two, both for the US Senate, and both in 2006 (talk about lightning striking twice!):

Connecticut 2006: Connecticut for Lieberman Party Joe Lieberman Re-elected 49.7%
Vermont 2006 : Independent Bernie Sanders Won 65.4%
 

half_life1052

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
270
Location
Austin, TX
::FLAG::

My primary point is that NO third party candidate has ever won a major election. Please provide us with an example of a third party candidate that has won a state-wide election.

All your flattery does not address my point: "Fix" the candidates at the primary level and you will have success.

TFred

Lieberman,Sanders, and King come to mind readily.
 

Repeater

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
2,498
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
How about...

Well, I saw your edits ....

I'm wondering, are you suggesting a full-scale Jungle Primary?

That would be God-awful .... worth considering, though:

Jungle Primary
A primary election in which all candidates for elected office run in the same primary regardless of political party.

Also known as the “Nonpartisan Blanket Primary” or “Top Two Primary”, the top two candidates who receive the most votes advance to the next round, similar to a runoff election. However, there is no separate nomination process for candidates before the first round, and parties cannot narrow the field. In fact, it is entirely possible that two candidates of the same party could advance to the second round. For this reason, it’s not surprising that the parties haven’t rushed to embrace jungle primaries because they ultimately reduce their power.

Oh, I see: God-awful for the Establishment. Such a free-for-all street brawl might give a muscular L-Party dude a fightn' chance.
 

kurt555gs

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
234
Location
, ,
::FLAG::

My primary point is that NO third party candidate has ever won a major election. Please provide us with an example of a third party candidate that has won a state-wide election.

All your flattery does not address my point: "Fix" the candidates at the primary level and you will have success.

TFred

Senator Bernie Sanders ( I ) Vermont.

Gort. Klaatu barada nikto.
 

papa bear

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2010
Messages
2,222
Location
mayberry, nc
TFRED, maybe it's about time for a third party. there is no difference in the Republican and the Democrats.

maybe it is about time we put some Libertarians in office they couldn't do any worse. who knows they might actually do good
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Connecticut 2006: Connecticut for Lieberman Party Joe Lieberman Re-elected 49.7%
Vermont 2006 : Independent Bernie Sanders Won 65.4%
No.

Lieberman is a Democrat who happens to irk a few too many of his fellow Democrats over strong defense issues.

Sanders... well, from Wiki:

"Sanders is a self-described democratic socialist,[2][3] and has praised Scandinavian-style social democracy;[4][5] he is the first person elected to Congress to identify as a socialist in six decades.[6][7]

Sanders caucuses with the Democratic Party and is counted as a Democrat for the purposes of committee assignments, but because he does not belong to a formal political party, he appears as an independent on the ballot."

Any other tries? If that's the best you got out of thousands of elections over the years, my point is proven.

TFred
 
Last edited:

Forty-five

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
223
Location
, Virginia, USA
This is the way I see it, as things currently stand.

If the (R) wins, RKBA in VA will either improve marginally (assuming the same or better state legislature) or at worst, stay the same.

If the (D) wins, RKBA in VA will be more of a target, from introduced legislation to judges appointed by the governor. As you are probably aware, a number of sources have already reported on contacts between the (D) and Bloomberg.
see, e.g., http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/terry-mcauliffe-michael-bloomberg-meeting-96217.html

While the (L) may be the best ideological RKBA/OC candidate, current polling and history do not appear to be on his side.

From strictly a 2A standpoint, electing the most viable alternative to the (D) would seem to be the best choice, and at this time, it would appear to be the (R).
 
Top