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Open Carry Racism article in REVERB

nonameisgood

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Dec 4, 2008
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Big D
well no offense, but if a black person is legally oc'ing with his pants by his ankles wearing baggy clothes, and in general looking the part like the gun is not legally owned and he is a thug.. uhm yeah i'm sure they will respond differently.

if said black oc'er is in regular attire, properly positioned upon oneself, I doubt he would get much flak. same with white oc'ers, dress a thug, act a thug, expect to be treated as such. dress proper, probably not going to be bothered much.

The problems I see with this line of thinking are mostly:
a) you cannot tell by appearances, as much as we all like to think we can. We don't have the wherewithal to exercise "Men In Black"-like quick thinking to shoot little Suzie instead of snarling aliens.
b) from what I've read and heard, even black officers tend to second glance black men, regardless of dress.
c) even a thug deserves to be treated like a proper citizen until a crime is committed BY HIM or HER. Just because someone isn't you or a mimic of you doesn't make them less than you. I am as suspicious and judgmental as most people, but I am not exercising authority of the state to harass and detain, only to observe and postulate. Our police need to stick to solving crimes and averting crime by means other than being a nuisance.

We implemented a drug testing program at my employer in 1989. It was a high-risk, safety-specific requirement. As we rolled in out, I was one of the folks charged with carrying the program education to the field. I can still hear as clear as yesterday one guy who told me "you can tell when they're on drugs, you can just tell!" (his accent pronounced "tell" like "tail".) And, no, you can't just tell when someone is a criminal.
 

Citizen

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Nov 15, 2006
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18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Appearances

well no offense, but if a black person is legally oc'ing with his pants by his ankles wearing baggy clothes, and in general looking the part like the gun is not legally owned and he is a thug.. uhm yeah i'm sure they will respond differently.

if said black oc'er is in regular attire, properly positioned upon oneself, I doubt he would get much flak. same with white oc'ers, dress a thug, act a thug, expect to be treated as such. dress proper, probably not going to be bothered much.

Thanks to NoNameIsGood for calling my attention to this post.

I well remember an encounter in a 7-Eleven several years ago.

It was after dark. I was OCing. The clerk, who knew me as a bit of a regular, finally asked me about my OCed gun after months of ringing me up. I chatted a minute. The guy next in line behind me mentioned that he carried. Since it wasn't OC, I assumed the gun was being CCed.

I forget the evolution of the conversation, but I eventually asked the guy whether and where he was carrying. In good spirit, and in support of self-defense, he produced both his CC permit and the smallish Glock he was carrying in the back pocket of his blue jeans. Moreoever, he kept the muzzle pointed down, pinching the grip between fingers and thumb, rather than a firing grip.

So, what has any of this got to do with anything?

He was almost as thug-gangsta as you could get. Not totally: little or no bling. No visible tattoos. But, the look was definitely headed in that direction.

Oh, and he was black.

Right then and there I had an in-my-face lesson about appearances.

Rights are rights are rights are rights.
 

utbagpiper

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4,061
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Utah
c) even a thug deserves to be treated like a proper citizen until a crime is committed BY HIM or HER. Just because someone isn't you or a mimic of you doesn't make them less than you. I am as suspicious and judgmental as most people, but I am not exercising authority of the state to harass and detain, only to observe and postulate. Our police need to stick to solving crimes and averting crime by means other than being a nuisance.

Nobody should be harassed because of race. But to a very large degree, we all get to choose how to dress, whether to sport tats and piercings, how we comport ourselves, and especially how we respond to others.

One doesn't avert many crimes by passively doing nothing.

Anything police do to avert crime (as contrasted with waiting to write a report and try to solve a crime after it occurs) is going to be viewed as harassing to some.

As a middle-aged, white, male, I expect I would garner a fair bit more attention if I were to sit in my parked car next to a random grade school than would an elderly black woman, all else being equal. I might have a dozen legit reasons to be sitting in my car on that public road. And depending on how I responded to whomever it was who stopped by to check (teacher, parent, cop), I might allay most all fears rather quickly. I hope that someone would check rather than waiting for something to happen. Being asked to account for my perfectly legal but statistically concerning conduct is a far smaller infringement of my rights than would be any child abduction be on the rights of the victim.

A few years ago random cars took to parking in front of my home. When I'd go out and ask the drivers if they were ok, they were always just "waiting to meet a friend." Since I live two blocks from a major commercial area with lots of amenities, my quiet residential street seemed a strange place for so many random people to be waiting to meet a friend. I figured the friend had something to sell that was less than legal.

I made a point of going out to check on the welfare of every driver who stopped in front of my house. In the process I very visibly noted their license plate number. Once or twice in the middle of the day, it was a salesman who was enjoying the shade from my tree to eat his lunch in his car or safely make a phone call. But every other time it was someone waiting for a friend.

I took to politely, but firmly telling these folks it was a bad place to wait for their friend because of some recent activity that had the neighbors and police on high alert; and I'd hate for innocent folks to get hassled.

One night I happened upon who I figured might be "the friend" when instead of the usual polite line about "meeting a friend" I got attitude about "a public street and his right to be there." I flat out told him that whatever he was buying or selling we didn't want. That really set him off which gave me a fine reason to report the unknown and confrontational driver parked in my neighborhood after dark.

The local PD had him lit up less than 2 minutes later. I have no idea of the details of what took place. But it took over half an hour before he and the PD were both gone. And we never again had anyone parking along our street after dark, "waiting for a friend."

I never saw an actual sale. And I don't want to have doors kicked in over a little private pot use. But I will make very sure that nobody gets to enjoy anonymity on my street. If I (or most of my neighbors) see someone I (they) don't know, I'm (we are) going to get to know them. If they consider that "hassling" or otherwise makes them uncomfortable enough to avoid my street, so be it.

The scum can deal drugs, and case houses, and vandalize, and commit other crimes in neighborhoods where folks don't want to see anyone "hassled".

And for the record, my street is more racially diverse than the average in Utah. Skin color has nothing to do any of the above personal experiences.

Charles
 
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jasonstorm

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
18
Location
AZ
open carry by non-whites

So I'm at my local Fry's here in Phoenix yesterday with the wife. Walk in the door and there's a Mexican open carrying. Not a minute later, in the produce section I notice a black male in early 20's open carrying. I had to smile. Haven't seen any open carry in weeks, and suddenly 2 "minorities" carrying proud in the span of minutes. And rounding it out was me, white male pushing middle age. Nobody took a second glance, nobody seemed to care. Gotta love Arizona:banana:
 

OC for ME

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White Oak Plantation
Still no crime other than looking like....without evidence it all should mean squat to the enFORCEr.
The point, in my view is not the race of the citizens, but that they were visibly armed, thus the "justification" for the encounters. The resultant treatment of the, apparently lawfully carrying citizens, is certainly motivated by the race of the citizens.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Whatcom County
The point, in my view is not the race of the citizens, but that they were visibly armed, thus the "justification" for the encounters. The resultant treatment of the, apparently lawfully carrying citizens, is certainly motivated by the race of the citizens.


Yep, some though think its a just use of the government to judge how one looks like for police encounters.

The supporters of proactive police involvement are really not friends of liberty.
 

Ezek

Regular Member
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Jan 19, 2015
Messages
411
Location
missouri
Yep, some though think its a just use of the government to judge how one looks like for police encounters.

The supporters of proactive police involvement are really not friends of liberty.

But when a majority who do commit crimes with illegally possessed firearms look a certain way, or very similar, it kind of set's a precedent, while not a legal precedent, it is a precedent none-the-less.

is it necessarily right? not necessarily. but if you dress like a common APB for a crime, expect to be stopped routinely, and repeatedly, prevention of these stops should be the responsibility of both parties, on way to prevent it is to dress in a more "respectable" fashion for the carrier.

an officers job can be quite hard, and if someone was illegally carrying and committed a crime and the officer saw them and did nothing earlier, he'd probably be rather mad at himself for letting them slip simply because there was no actual reason, legally, to stop them.

this is unfortunately the human conundrum.
 

OC for ME

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But when a majority who do commit crimes with illegally possessed firearms look a certain way, or very similar, it kind of set's a precedent, while not a legal precedent, it is a precedent none-the-less.

is it necessarily right? not necessarily. but if you dress like a common APB for a crime, expect to be stopped routinely, and repeatedly, prevention of these stops should be the responsibility of both parties, on way to prevent it is to dress in a more "respectable" fashion for the carrier.

an officers job can be quite hard, and if someone was illegally carrying and committed a crime and the officer saw them and did nothing earlier, he'd probably be rather mad at himself for letting them slip simply because there was no actual reason, legally, to stop them.

this is unfortunately the human conundrum.
I dress respectably, most of the time. I have, on occasion, been dressed not so respectably, looking like a backwoods hick just off the plantation. Yet, without a clear and unambiguous violation of law witnessed by a cop he must not act. Stopping folks, regardless of their dress, simply to "make sure" is unacceptable.

If you "act" like you are lawfully armed most cops may think this as well. In other words, going about doing those things that are normal daily activities, while visibly armed, must not be suspicious behavior. Unfortunately some cops ignore the facts before their own eyes.
 

Ezek

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Messages
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missouri
well OC, I'm not pretending to have the answers for the potential of the problem. Maybe someone else will have an idea on how to solve the problem of potential, I merely understand the reasoning behind it. although unfair, and unfounded at the time.

I'll be honest, I don't OC most of the time, my build and size tend to prevent many people from actually wanting to bring any violent action in my direction. however when drive by's begin to become closer to home I consider it immensely. I also tend to dress like whatever feels comfortable after work regardless of how ridiculous it looks, function over form is generally my motto.

So yeah I can see how I wouldn't fit into the neat little box of "proper" most of the time myself.

but my pants aren't down around my ankles either..
 
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Ezek

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
411
Location
missouri
The problems I see with this line of thinking are mostly:
a) you cannot tell by appearances, as much as we all like to think we can. We don't have the wherewithal to exercise "Men In Black"-like quick thinking to shoot little Suzie instead of snarling aliens.
b) from what I've read and heard, even black officers tend to second glance black men, regardless of dress.
c) even a thug deserves to be treated like a proper citizen until a crime is committed BY HIM or HER. Just because someone isn't you or a mimic of you doesn't make them less than you. I am as suspicious and judgmental as most people, but I am not exercising authority of the state to harass and detain, only to observe and postulate. Our police need to stick to solving crimes and averting crime by means other than being a nuisance.

We implemented a drug testing program at my employer in 1989. It was a high-risk, safety-specific requirement. As we rolled in out, I was one of the folks charged with carrying the program education to the field. I can still hear as clear as yesterday one guy who told me "you can tell when they're on drugs, you can just tell!" (his accent pronounced "tell" like "tail".) And, no, you can't just tell when someone is a criminal.


I agree, you can't, unfortunately our human nature tends to lend us to being judge based on appearance. I also am not exercising any authority, but I also do not generally go looking for trouble in my area.

and when I do OC it's usually work boots, jeans and a Tshirt. unless it is winter.. then it is a long sleeve instead of a T and a nice warm jacket.

if I ever finish building my bike, it will be either 2 piece leathers or one piece and OC LOL rather be geared for the slide that MAY happen then wind up with a lot of roadrash.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
But when a majority who do commit crimes with illegally possessed firearms look a certain way, or very similar, it kind of set's a precedent, while not a legal precedent, it is a precedent none-the-less.

is it necessarily right? not necessarily. but if you dress like a common APB for a crime, expect to be stopped routinely, and repeatedly, prevention of these stops should be the responsibility of both parties, on way to prevent it is to dress in a more "respectable" fashion for the carrier.

an officers job can be quite hard, and if someone was illegally carrying and committed a crime and the officer saw them and did nothing earlier, he'd probably be rather mad at himself for letting them slip simply because there was no actual reason, legally, to stop them.

this is unfortunately the human conundrum.

NO its not a conundrum and its quite unconstitutional and inhumane.

It sets no precedent, zip zero nada. YOU as a cop must remain restrained in the commission of your duties or find another job.
 
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nonameisgood

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Dec 4, 2008
Messages
1,008
Location
Big D
....

if I ever finish building my bike, it will be either 2 piece leathers or one piece and OC LOL rather be geared for the slide that MAY happen then wind up with a lot of roadrash.

I ride all-the-gear-all-the-time in textiles, and the pistol is usually in either a leg pocket (bad if I go down) or a chest pocket (better). I'm not sure that will change once we can OC here. But I don't look like a bike gang member... No reason to pretend to be something I'm not. And I don't want LE to think I might be, which brings us back to the topic: I avoid stirring the Hornets' nest unnecessarily.
Some people have physical characteristics that others view as suspicious. I'm 50-something and white, so people don't automatically take a second look because they simply don't associate those things with criminals. (Never mind that "white" is the race listed in 69% of arrests)
Since I'm on that subject, by the numbers, 28% of arrests are listed as "black" race, while only about 13-15% of the population is listed as "black" or mixed.
It's not clear whether it is chicken or egg. More crime committed by blacks, as a percentage of population, or more arrests because of bias? Maybe both.
But it is a wider indication of the how's and whys of bias, not a justification for letting it continue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

solus

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Aug 22, 2013
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here nc
I agree, you can't, unfortunately our human nature tends to lend us to being judge based on appearance. I also am not exercising any authority, but I also do not generally go looking for trouble in my area.

and when I do OC it's usually work boots, jeans and a Tshirt. unless it is winter.. then it is a long sleeve instead of a T and a nice warm jacket.

if I ever finish building my bike, it will be either 2 piece leathers or one piece and OC LOL rather be geared for the slide that MAY happen then wind up with a lot of roadrash.

ezek, while appearance plays a key role in everyone's distinguishing threats against them w/the hard part being that analysis phase is overcoming our own personal biases of how we perceive the person so we can quickly establish a threat level in an appropriate time frame to keep and maintain your ability for the defence of yourself and those you hold dear.

what kinda scoot you putting together? and just go w/the pants and get a vent'd jacket w/inside pocket for you firearm.

ipse
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
I ride all-the-gear-all-the-time in textiles, and the pistol is usually in either a leg pocket (bad if I go down) or a chest pocket (better). I'm not sure that will change once we can OC here. But I don't look like a bike gang member... No reason to pretend to be something I'm not. And I don't want LE to think I might be, which brings us back to the topic: I avoid stirring the Hornets' nest unnecessarily.
Some people have physical characteristics that others view as suspicious. I'm 50-something and white, so people don't automatically take a second look because they simply don't associate those things with criminals. (Never mind that "white" is the race listed in 69% of arrests)
Since I'm on that subject, by the numbers, 28% of arrests are listed as "black" race, while only about 13-15% of the population is listed as "black" or mixed.
It's not clear whether it is chicken or egg. More crime committed by blacks, as a percentage of population, or more arrests because of bias? Maybe both.
But it is a wider indication of the how's and whys of bias, not a justification for letting it continue.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

i believe you will discern noname, et al., tis not ethnicity per se, but rather you will find the deciding factor is social economic status of the individual ~ bernie madoff!!

ipse
 

Ezek

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Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
411
Location
missouri
ezek, while appearance plays a key role in everyone's distinguishing threats against them w/the hard part being that analysis phase is overcoming our own personal biases of how we perceive the person so we can quickly establish a threat level in an appropriate time frame to keep and maintain your ability for the defence of yourself and those you hold dear.

what kinda scoot you putting together? and just go w/the pants and get a vent'd jacket w/inside pocket for you firearm.

ipse

06 600rr for the scoot. will be honest though, finding parts and applying the "I can build it" mentality you can have with an AR is not precisely working out.. there is ALOT more parts.
 

solus

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Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
06 600rr for the scoot. will be honest though, finding parts and applying the "I can build it" mentality you can have with an AR is not precisely working out.. there is ALOT more parts.

nice ride...pm me on whatcha trying to do ezek...sometimes as grape saz bout olde age...is ineffective as i scribe to the thought two eyes are better than one.

ipse
 
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