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I thought Daylight Savings time ends in November?

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Aaron1124

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Then what's this? Apparently it ends tonight?

At two o'clock antemeridian Pacific Standard Time of the *last Sunday in April each year the time of the state of Washington shall be advanced one hour, and at two o'clock antemeridian Pacific Standard Time of the last Sunday in October in each year the time of the state of Washington shall, by the retarding of one hour, be returned to Pacific Standard Time.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=1.20.051
 
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Citizen

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George Bush signed legislation or an order in (2005? 2007?) shifting the date around.

Just more government screwing with you. In this case, your sleep pattern.

I'm darned if I can find any constitutional authority for congress or the president declaring what time of day it is.
 
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Citizen

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Dreamer said:
For 2010, DST switches on Sunday, 7 November in the USA.
Click to expand...

We'll probably get a tax increase for wearing out some sort of celestial clutch with all this time shifting.

If the earth's iron core ever flops over and reverses the magnetic field, we'll know who to blame.
 
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PT111

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I want to know what they are doing with all the daylight they are saving and where are they saving it. Probably in some off shore bank in a numbered account at a high interest rate.
 
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boyscout399

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Citizen said:
George Bush signed legislation or an order in (2005? 2007?) shifting the date around.

Just more government screwing with you. In this case, your sleep pattern.

I'm darned if I can find any constitutional authority for congress or the president declaring what time of day it is.
Click to expand...

US Constitution Article I Section 8:

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures

Time is a form of measurement and the US Congress has the authority to set the standard for it.

Not to be rude, but read the Constitution before you say you can't find the congressional authority for it. I'm a VERY STRONG supporter of Constitutional Congressional Limitations, but this is actually one of the few things that they ARE expressly authorized to do. :D
 
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Citizen

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boyscout399 said:
US Constitution Article I Section 8:

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures

Time is a form of measurement and the US Congress has the authority to set the standard for it.

Not to be rude, but read the Constitution before you say you can't find the congressional authority for it. I'm a VERY STRONG supporter of Constitutional Congressional Limitations, but this is actually one of the few things that they ARE expressly authorized to do. :D
Click to expand...

I disagree. Weights and measures have to do with products being commerced. By no stretch of the imagination can one find the power to arbitrarily say sidereal midnight just shifted by 1 hour.
 
eye95

eye95

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boyscout399 said:
US Constitution Article I Section 8:

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures

Time is a form of measurement and the US Congress has the authority to set the standard for it.

Not to be rude, but read the Constitution before you say you can't find the congressional authority for it. I'm a VERY STRONG supporter of Constitutional Congressional Limitations, but this is actually one of the few things that they ARE expressly authorized to do. :D
Click to expand...

Excellent point. One thing we measure is time--and it is extremely important to commerce that we agree on time, both in the measure of its length and in the identification of points in time.

I hadn't considered this. Thanks.

It does raise an interesting point: Even though this would fall under the enumerated powers of Congress, it is left to the States to determine if they will use DST. It would actually be better if Congress used this enumerated power to effect more standardization. After all, that is why the power exists: to standardize measures, including time.
 
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boyscout399

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Citizen said:
I disagree. Weights and measures have to do with products being commerced. By no stretch of the imagination can one find the power to arbitrarily say sidereal midnight just shifted by 1 hour.
Click to expand...

Where do you find that weights and measures have anything to do with commerce? The weights and measures clause is separate from the commerce clause and not dependent on it at all...

Weights and measures can constitute anything involving measurement. It gives justification for setting standards. The Congress under the weights and measures authority can set the legal width of rails, the font and capitalization shape and size of road signs, they can set the measurement of time, the measurement of distance, the measurement of weight, the measurement of calories, the measurement of density, measurements of radiation, etc.
 
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Jack House

Jack House

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boyscout399 said:
Where do you find that weights and measures have anything to do with commerce? The weights and measures clause is separate from the commerce clause and not dependent on it at all...
Click to expand...
And even if it was, Eye95 makes a damn good point that A. DST is optional and B. that a standardized measurement of time is critical to commerce.
 
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Citizen

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You guys insist on overlooking the point, carefully making arguments around it.

First, BoyScout, weights and measures doesn't have to say commerce in order for that to be the underlying reason. The 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination says nothing about being forced to give oaths ala the Star Chamber, yet that is one of its reasons. Even coining money and regulating the value thereof doesn't say anything about commerce, yet...duh...if you know what I mean. Weights and measures is for commerce, and taxation. Knowing the government today, it is probably even more about taxation.

Now, as for measuring time, it is one thing to say 1 second is so many millions of ocillations of a cesium atom so all the GPS receivers and cell phones work. That is a measure of a second. We're talking about something else here. The length of a day was figured out astronomically a long time ago. Even changes in the calendar were more about measuring time and aligning better with the seasons, as I understand it, and perhaps lunar phases.

Pretending to shift sidereal time (time based on the stars) by arbitrarily declaring what amounts to midnight happening 1 hour earlier or later is so far removed from any legitimate basis for measurement that it can't be reached. Even commerce does not depend on shifting the start and end of the day around twice a year. From what admittedly little reading I have on the subject, the most recent adjustment to the clock was for fuel savings at power plants. Oh, give me a break. As if fuel economy for power plants is within reach of making commerce regular or orderly.
 
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boyscout399

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Citizen said:
You guys insist on overlooking the point, carefully making arguments around it.

First, BoyScout, weights and measures doesn't have to say commerce in order for that to be the underlying reason. The 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination says nothing about being forced to give oaths ala the Star Chamber, yet that is one of its reasons. Even coining money and regulating the value thereof doesn't say anything about commerce, yet...duh...if you know what I mean. Weights and measures is for commerce, and taxation. Knowing the government today, it is probably even more about taxation.

Now, as for measuring time, it is one thing to say 1 second is so many millions of ocillations of a cesium atom so all the GPS receivers and cell phones work. That is a measure of a second. We're talking about something else here. The length of a day was figured out astronomically a long time ago. Even changes in the calendar were more about measuring time and aligning better with the seasons, as I understand it, and perhaps lunar phases.

Pretending to shift sidereal time (time based on the stars) by arbitrarily declaring what amounts to midnight happening 1 hour earlier or later is so far removed from any legitimate basis for measurement that it can't be reached. Even commerce does not depend on shifting the start and end of the day around twice a year. From what admittedly little reading I have on the subject, the most recent adjustment to the clock was for fuel savings at power plants. Oh, give me a break. As if fuel economy for power plants is within reach of making commerce regular or orderly.
Click to expand...

from The Heritage Guide to the Constitution:

Rather, the purpose in granting this power was to facilitate domestic and international commerce by permitting the federal government to adopt and enforce national measurement standards based upon the prevailing consensus

Sorry, but right now the prevailing consensus in time measurement includes a one hour shift in the spring and the fall...
 
eye95

eye95

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boyscout399 said:
from The Heritage Guide to the Constitution:

Rather, the purpose in granting this power was to facilitate domestic and international commerce by permitting the federal government to adopt and enforce national measurement standards based upon the prevailing consensus

Sorry, but right now the prevailing consensus in time measurement includes a one hour shift in the spring and the fall...
Click to expand...

Heck, science is not possible without an agreement on standards of measure. There are a handful of "fundamental" units of measure, one of which measures time.

So, there is more than just commerce for which we need to set standards.

I used to illustrate this idea by asking my students to tell me what time it was, using their various tools for establishing what point in time it was. Answers varied widely. I had an "atomic" clock in my classroom. I used to point to it and say, "Four times a day, a radio signal is sent from Fort Collins, Colorado, telling this clock what time it is. This clock then tells us what time it is, with as much precision and accuracy as it is capable of, according to the National Institute of Standards, which is responsible for ensuring consistency when we measure time, distance, mass, volume, etc."

Even the founders knew we had to agree on measurements. They probably did not foresee the extent to which and the precision with which we measure things these days, but they knew we had to agree on terms to be able to communicate effectively--and that agreement had to be nation-wide.
 
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