• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

CCW permit

D

DeputySheriff

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
26
Location
Mississippi
Daylen said:
So I'm not the only one highly bothered by that incident? Being disarmed and a LEO taking my firearm just to check a permit which isn't really needed... I'd hardly say no problem.
Click to expand...

Don't shoot the messenger but, guys ya'll be very careful if you refuse to relinquish your weapon to an officer if he or she asks for it. Officer safety goes a long way in court and if that officer has reasonable articulable suspicion that he or anyone around him has been, is currently or may later be in danger or any laws has, is or about to be broken by you carrying a gun, the law and courts are on his side, and he doesn't have to tell you his reasons.
All he needs is probable cause or reasonable articulable suspicion to ask you for your weapon and on the side of a road with an LEO isn't the place for a debate... You may never know what his reasons are. Like I say, don't shoot the messenger but please keep this in mind. Complaints against the LEO can be filed later and you get to go on about your business.
 
DCKilla

DCKilla

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
523
Location
Wet Side, WA
I think most people know the difference between a request and an order. When asked to give something, it sounds like a request. I'm sure if the officer wanted the weapon bad enough they would take without asking. Why ask in the first place? If asked to search my car, my answer would be "no" or "I don't give consent to seach." If asked to hand over my weapon, my answer should be...

DS, what should the answer be when asked?
 
Last edited:
MSRebel54

MSRebel54

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
238
Location
Northern Mississippi, ,
DCKilla said:
I think most people know the difference between a request and an order. When asked to give something, it sounds like a request. I'm sure if the officer wanted the weapon bad enough they would take without asking. Why ask in the first place? If asked to search my car, my answer would be "no" or "I don't give consent to seach." If asked to hand over my weapon, my answer should be...

DS, what should the answer be when asked?
Click to expand...

I'm eagerly awaiting that answer myself.

How would HE like it if I said please hand over your weapon, so I can have the advantage? Probably wouldn't happen. Oh wait, I get it, He's the cop, and I'm the..whatever.

DS, we hire you to act in our stead, not to dominate us. Your job is 'peace officer' not law enforcer. If I haven't harmed anyone nor their property, or can't be considered by reasonable people to be ABOUT to harm anyone or their property, then you have no business accosting me at all.

Unless you see an immanent threat of danger to persons or property, OR there has been a complaint filed by an ACTUAL person, not the fictitious "State of Mississippi", then according to the oath you swore, you should pretty much leave people alone. In other words, if you're true to your oath, that you swore to God to uphold, you'll be a peace officer, and not a 'law enforcer'.
 
DCKilla

DCKilla

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
523
Location
Wet Side, WA
MSRebel54 said:
I'm eagerly awaiting that answer myself.

How would HE like it if I said please hand over your weapon, so I can have the advantage? Probably wouldn't happen. Oh wait, I get it, He's the cop, and I'm the..whatever.

DS, we hire you to act in our stead, not to dominate us. Your job is 'peace officer' not law enforcer. If I haven't harmed anyone nor their property, or can't be considered by reasonable people to be ABOUT to harm anyone or their property, then you have no business accosting me at all.

Unless you see an immanent threat of danger to persons or property, OR there has been a complaint filed by an ACTUAL person, not the fictitious "State of Mississippi", then according to the oath you swore, you should pretty much leave people alone. In other words, if you're true to your oath, that you swore to God to uphold, you'll be a peace officer, and not a 'law enforcer'.
Click to expand...
DS is a respected member of OCDO. Please, do not back him into a corner like this. I don't like to be told how to do my job. Also, I'm sure most people here feel the same way. I feel your fustration. But we need to give him the same respect as any OCDO member.
 
D

Daylen

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
2,223
Location
America
DeputySheriff said:
Don't shoot the messenger but, guys ya'll be very careful if you refuse to relinquish your weapon to an officer if he or she asks for it. Officer safety goes a long way in court and if that officer has reasonable articulable suspicion that he or anyone around him has been, is currently or may later be in danger or any laws has, is or about to be broken by you carrying a gun, the law and courts are on his side, and he doesn't have to tell you his reasons.
All he needs is probable cause or reasonable articulable suspicion to ask you for your weapon and on the side of a road with an LEO isn't the place for a debate... You may never know what his reasons are. Like I say, don't shoot the messenger but please keep this in mind. Complaints against the LEO can be filed later and you get to go on about your business.
Click to expand...

I'm not shooting anyone unless they are an immediate threat to my life or limb.

I didn't say I would resist or advocate resisting an officer disarming me. I simply said that an officer doing so while asking for a permit that he really doesn't have much business asking for in the first place is a problem.

First, if stopped I would not touch the weapon or even bring my hands around it. I'm not going to even get close to giving the officer a reason to shoot me. Also, if he violates my rights as opposed to me relinquishing them, by him disarming me, now I can go to a court and precedence is more on my side. I will not voluntarily give up protected rights, for if I do a court will not give it back.

"Officer safety" trumping citizen safety and protected rights IS a problem.
 
G

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
Daylen said:
"Officer safety" trumping citizen safety and protected rights IS a problem.
Click to expand...

Yes that is a problem, but it is the way the courts are moving because of political pressure. Once these types of philosophical 'assumptions" begin to infect the court room, it's difficult to stem the tide. It's why it is important for us OCers to make the study of law such a high priority. It's the only way we can understand how to begin fixing these problems.
 
MSRebel54

MSRebel54

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
238
Location
Northern Mississippi, ,
DCKilla said:
DS is a respected member of OCDO. Please, do not back him into a corner like this. I don't like to be told how to do my job. Also, I'm sure most people here feel the same way. I feel your fustration. But we need to give him the same respect as any OCDO member.
Click to expand...

I apologize. I was feeling particularity frustrated, and it is one of those messages one regrets almost from the instant the "submit" button is clicked. I hope DS will accept my apology. - Reb
 
MSRebel54

MSRebel54

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
238
Location
Northern Mississippi, ,
f they write you a ticket, they must put the exact MS code you violated on that ticket. How would they know what to put if they hadn't done it a hundred times before?
Click to expand...

Quoting myself here, I have since found out that the practice of writing the code on the ticket, is not a requirement, but more or less departmental policy. Some jurisdictions do not, and some do. I stand corrected.
 
G

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
MSRebel54 said:
Quoting myself here, I have since found out that the practice of writing the code on the ticket, is not a requirement, but more or less departmental policy. Some jurisdictions do not, and some do. I stand corrected.
Click to expand...

Yes... we citizens will accept ANYTHING as due process these days.
 
MSRebel54

MSRebel54

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
238
Location
Northern Mississippi, ,
I've gotten a couple of tickets in the past, and because MY jurisdiction wrote the actual code that was allegedly violated on the ticket, I presumed that it was a statewide thing. But I got schooled real quick by a DS friend of mine, who said, no, that is not the case everywhere. I know this is getting a bit off topic, but I've got to go here. He even told me that they could write you a ticket for ANYTHING, and then later look up the code violation before court date. And he told me if there IS NO code violation, then they simply won't show up, and it'll be dismissed. Or won't answer when they're called or whatever.

I mean damn, you can't win for losing. You are at a disadvantage to START with. But they tell us don't bitch about it, or balk about it, just go along with the program until SOMEONE changes it.

Well, I have a THIRD option. And it's not violent. How about using their OWN rules against them?

Ya'll remember the movie "Walking Tall" where the Sheriff put the Judges chambers in the latrine? He said something like, "What you got to worry about, yo honor, is what's in this book I can use against you"

Well, there is a book called the Mississippi Code, and it's quite hefty, and they do NOT want you to read it, because you MIGHT be smart enough to use it against them. After all, it is THEIR rules. The thing they fear the most is that you know your rights, but they REALLY get upset if you know the LAW.

Once again, I know this is a bit off topic, but it's not really, since section 97 is a part of the MS code, and I'm encouraging people to read the code. Just for entertainment. I mean I do it just for gits and shiggles, and you might be amazed what you find in it. I recommend everyone do that in there spare time. The more educated we are, the more we can make THEM look like fools, and get our open carry law passed. And I'm not saying insult them, I'm just saying by facts make them look like fools, in a nice way. I've actually done that before and gotten a legislator to withdraw his bill, and it was about "process serving". Nothing to do with this forum.

There is SO much more behind it, if you just read the code. I don't see how we EVER let them get away with it. No internet, I guess.
 
G

georg jetson

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
2,416
Location
Slidell, Louisiana
MSRebel54 said:
I've gotten a couple of tickets in the past, and because MY jurisdiction wrote the actual code that was allegedly violated on the ticket, I presumed that it was a statewide thing. But I got schooled real quick by a DS friend of mine, who said, no, that is not the case everywhere. I know this is getting a bit off topic, but I've got to go here. He even told me that they could write you a ticket for ANYTHING, and then later look up the code violation before court date. And he told me if there IS NO code violation, then they simply won't show up, and it'll be dismissed. Or won't answer when they're called or whatever.

I mean damn, you can't win for losing. You are at a disadvantage to START with. But they tell us don't bitch about it, or balk about it, just go along with the program until SOMEONE changes it.

Well, I have a THIRD option. And it's not violent. How about using their OWN rules against them?

Ya'll remember the movie "Walking Tall" where the Sheriff put the Judges chambers in the latrine? He said something like, "What you got to worry about, yo honor, is what's in this book I can use against you"

Well, there is a book called the Mississippi Code, and it's quite hefty, and they do NOT want you to read it, because you MIGHT be smart enough to use it against them. After all, it is THEIR rules. The thing they fear the most is that you know your rights, but they REALLY get upset if you know the LAW.

Once again, I know this is a bit off topic, but it's not really, since section 97 is a part of the MS code, and I'm encouraging people to read the code. Just for entertainment. I mean I do it just for gits and shiggles, and you might be amazed what you find in it. I recommend everyone do that in there spare time. The more educated we are, the more we can make THEM look like fools, and get our open carry law passed. And I'm not saying insult them, I'm just saying by facts make them look like fools, in a nice way. I've actually done that before and gotten a legislator to withdraw his bill, and it was about "process serving". Nothing to do with this forum.

There is SO much more behind it, if you just read the code. I don't see how we EVER let them get away with it. No internet, I guess.
Click to expand...

Due process rights are more on topic than you think. It's a right few citizens understand. Tickets fail completely as process here in Louisiana and I'm sure they do as well in Ms. Tickets are for convenience and efficiency for the legal system and sometimes convenient for the citizen as well. However, there are times when it is beneficial for process to be challenged and learning how to do so is a great insight into the legal process. You should check your Ms. code of procedure, both civil and criminal, for the definition of a "citation" or "summons". Also look up how a criminal prosecution is instituted. I’m sure your research will bring you to conclude that ONLY the courts can issue proper process.

As far as the ticket goes, the cop can write whatever he wants and the ADA can change it any way he likes unless the defendant PROPERLY challenges... and the PROPER challenge is usually NOT done orally... of course check your state's rules for this as well.
 
Chap

Chap

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2011
Messages
213
Location
Greenville, MS
Got mine in like two weeks

Course it helps when you put on your application:

Employer - Homeland Security, Coast Guard
Job - Federal Investigation Officer & Marine Inspector
Title Warrant Officer/W4

I'd probably be held to a higher standard by a judge if I ever trip over a law. So my job experience might back fire on me if I slip up. I couldn't claim I didn't understand the Use of Force Policy the Coast Guard has drilled into me.



Chap
 
D

DeputySheriff

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
26
Location
Mississippi
I wish I could've replied sooner, we've been extremely busy lately and I do not have one of those so-called "Smart-Phones" that enables me to get on the web, I refuse to have a phone that is smarter than I am! :)
Anyway, I understand the peoples frustrations and no-one needs to apologize to me for backing me into a corner.

If you are ever detained and you are asked for your weapon, you can simply ask if he is demanding you to relinquish your weapon, if he is trained like I am, he will make it very clear if he is demanding or asking. If he is only asking, you can tell him you will only hand it over if he is demanding the weapon (YOU must be clear also). At this time, whatever the LEO says will determine if he is asking or demanding, if you feel he damanded the weapon in error, then file a complaint, I know for a fact that IAs HATES crooked cops, so do I!

Just remember, we (LEO's) may have a BOLO for a MWAG ("Drugs-'R'-Us") may have just been robbed by a MWAG) and on the side of the road is not the place for a debate... Let the courts and the IA sort it out.

Also remember, the FOIA may be able to help you out also... It also doesn't hurt if you have a DVR. I promise you that if I ever stop you, then everything you say will be recorded!

Guy's, I'll say again, please don't shoot the messenger... I want everyone to be able to legally peaceably carry and stay out of jail all at the same time. You guys that legally carry are some of the most law abiding citizens out there and any LEO with a lick of sense knows it. Carry-on!
 
MSRebel54

MSRebel54

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
238
Location
Northern Mississippi, ,
DeputySheriff said:
Anyway, I understand the peoples frustrations and no-one needs to apologize to me for backing me into a corner.

Carry-on!
Click to expand...

You understand. You are a good guy. You are probably as close as can come to being a "peace officer". Now THAT is public service I can respect. You evidently know what it means to be a peace officer, and you have read the Constitution, and the Mississippi Constitution. I can respect that.

But don't you find it hard to go about your daily job KNOWING you are expected to violate people's rights? And I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I just want to know. And certainly, there are people you should sincerely bitch slap to the ground, probably the majority of them. But those are the people who have actually done harm.

Who have I harmed if my tag is expired? If my drivers license has expired, or been suspended for parking tickets? Really, I mean WHO have I harmed? Who is the complainant? Well, damn, I'm going to file an affidavit on Joe Blow because his tag is expired. Ever had that happen before?

Well, yeah, the state needs the money, and that's what you do when you're not really arresting criminals. But is that REALLY being a PEACE OFFICER? And is that REALLY upholding the Constitution for the United States?

Is that REALLY giving the people the freedom the Constitution intended for them to have? Yes, it's "against the law" to not have a drivers license, or wear a motorcycle helmet, or a seat belt, but those are things a "peace officer" should not concern himself with.

The only person I can POSSIBLY harm is myself. And I do own my own body. At least originally anyway. But you do these things every day, under the guise of "doing good" for the public.

I'm not sure it's doing good for the public, are you?

And I know this is off topic and it might get zapped.
 
D

DeputySheriff

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
26
Location
Mississippi
But don't you find it hard to go about your daily job KNOWING you are expected to violate people's rights? And I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I just want to know. And certainly, there are people you should sincerely bitch slap to the ground, probably the majority of them. But those are the people who have actually done harm.

Who have I harmed if my tag is expired? If my drivers license has expired, or been suspended for parking tickets? Really, I mean WHO have I harmed? Who is the complainant? Well, damn, I'm going to file an affidavit on Joe Blow because his tag is expired. Ever had that happen before?
Click to expand...

I am certain that if I violated the peoples rights very often then my sheriff would make sure that I'd be looking for a new job fairly quickly.

As for the other questions, what makes you feel you should be able to ride around with an expired tag and/or expired license when you know it is against the law? A law that was voted in, although indirectly, by the people? What about insurance? Do you have liability insurance? Do you believe everyone should be required to have liability insurance? I do and I did before I became a deputy.

As for who is harmed by an expired tag? In a way, no-one... In another way, everyone as ultimately it causes state revenue to drop and the prices to go up for those who keep their tags up to date.

Just for the record, I am not a traffic cop, my primary job is to keep an eye on my businesses and to answer calls, I am not required to write any citations and actually, I hate traffic stops because if things go south, my back-up is usually nowhere near.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top