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Use of tear gas is not allowed by military .. yet police still use it

MAC702

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I'm thinking this is a bit misleading.

The military no longer uses poison gas.

The military has no real need for tear gas. That said, who says they don't have it to use if they need to?

Tear gas most certainly has its place. The problem is that it is wrongly used sometimes, or purposely used "accidentally wrongly" to burn alive someone that can't be allowed to talk to the media afterward.
 

SFCRetired

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Unless things have changed drastically since my days in the military, the Army had both CS and CN grenades, plus other means of deploying those agents. Both of those, incidently, were used in SE Asia during that unpleasantness, mostly by the "tunnel rats".

Poison gas, such as mustard, phosgene, VX, etc., are proscribed by the Geneva Convention and the Hague Accord under the "Laws of Land Warfare". CS and CN, while very unpleasant and incapacitating, are, with rare exceptions, non-injurious. Persons with respiratory or gastrointestinal issues should be exposed to neither agent.

Btw, CN will make you think you are going to bring up meals you ate twenty years ago.

Only reason I know this much is I had to teach a class on the Law of Land Warfare. I also was exposed, in training, to both those agents. Neither is a pleasant experience.

From what I understand, neither the tear gas (CS) or the pepper spray used by police is as strong as that used by the military.

Some of you with more recent military experience may be able to shed much more light on the subject.
 

WalkingWolf

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Last time I talked to a grunt the Army still does tear gas training. Not sure if the MP's still carry pepper spray or not.

Unless the OP has some citation to such I believe it is more made up stuff.
 

Grapeshot

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There is no better way to detect a poorly fitted gas mask than CS, and you'll notice it a lot sooner than internal radioactive contamination.

I still have my snot encrusted ballcap from my ammunition ship (USS Paricutin AE-18) firefighting training when we learned to breathe through our noses no matter how BAD it hurt. I probably snotted a gallon in CS training and almost a gallon of diesel smoke doing hot entries.

The school had a concrete building into which they'd pump a few hundred gallons of gasoline and diesel for us to extinguish, eventually without benefit of breathing apparatus as we learned to breathe the air entrained in the water.

My shipboard firefighting job was to run with a Red Devil Blower. I was a lot younger then.
That is snot good!

Been there and done that - makes me irritable. Others had to hold me back from showing a Captain just how much after he accidentally gave me a face full.
 

NavyMike

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WalkingWolf

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Chemical Weapons Convention: Since 1997 may not use riot control agents as a method of war.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...tear-gas-was-banned-warfare-1993-police-1997/

Pepper spray for LE duty is not war, from your citation. ""Law enforcement including domestic riot control purposes" is "not prohibited under this convention," says Article II (9) (d)."

I have seen MP on Fort Bragg with pepper spray on their belt, but I have not paid attention for a long time, but they did post 1997. Army MP still go through pepper/tear gas training, and riot training.
 

NavyMike

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Pepper spray for LE duty is not war, from your citation. ""Law enforcement including domestic riot control purposes" is "not prohibited under this convention," says Article II (9) (d)."

I have seen MP on Fort Bragg with pepper spray on their belt, but I have not paid attention for a long time, but they did post 1997. Army MP still go through pepper/tear gas training, and riot training.

I didn't say LE duty equated to war.

A citation was asked for with regard to the military use of tear gas/pepper spray.

By convention, it may not be used as a weapon against enemy fighting forces.
It may be used as a means for riot control, for example to quell a riot in a PoW camp.

An Army MP with pepper spray, using it against one of our own, would not be prohibited by the convention.

Tear gas is used for training purposes to test the correct fit and donning procedures of gas masks.
 

WalkingWolf

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I didn't say LE duty equated to war.

A citation was asked for with regard to the military use of tear gas/pepper spray.

By convention, it may not be used as a weapon against enemy fighting forces.
It may be used as a means for riot control, for example to quell a riot in a PoW camp.

An Army MP with pepper spray, using it against one of our own, would not be prohibited by the convention.

Tear gas is used for training purposes to test the correct fit and donning procedures of gas masks.

AND that was not a citation that had anything to do with military in a law enforcement situation which is what is being discussed with police. Unless police are in the reserves, or guard they do not go to war.

The fact is the military STILL uses irritant spray in the same capacity as civilian law enforcement.
 

NavyMike

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AND that was not a citation that had anything to do with military in a law enforcement situation which is what is being discussed with police. Unless police are in the reserves, or guard they do not go to war.

The fact is the military STILL uses irritant spray in the same capacity as civilian law enforcement.

You might have been exclusivley referring to the military use in a law enforcement situation; others were clearly not limiting the discussion to that narrow use.

The point I believe that the OP is making is there is a juxtaposition between our military being banned from using a substance on foreign soil in war; yet our law enforcement can use it domestically.
 
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WalkingWolf

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You might have been exclusivley referring to the military use in a law enforcement situation; others were clearly not limiting the discussion to that narrow use.

The point I believe that the OP is making is there is a juxtaposition between our military being banned from using a substance on foreign soil in war; yet our law enforcement can use it domestically.

That is what we are talking about, it is right there in the title of the thread.
 

Citizen

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Not sure what all the emphasis on CS gas is about.

Fact: CS gas is neutralized by activated charcoal filters. Been there, done that--personal experience: USMC boot camp.

How to apply that fact?

Lets say you have to cross through a riot to get medicine for the baby. Or, lets say you foresee the possibility of having to do that in a few days when the medicine runs out and tensions are rising. Nothing easier. Just pop by your local paint store and buy the mask and filters used by professional painters when spray-painting the interior walls of an office building. Heck, they even have filters that will take out lead paint dust and fumes. No, you don't need the purple lead filters for CS. Regular charcoal filters for spraying residential interior water-borne acrylic wall paint will do fine.

Wait, though. CS is an irritant--a supremely effective irritant. So, you will need something to protect your eyes when crossing that riot scene for the baby's medicine. Won't do you any good to breathe great without a river of snot from your nose if you stumble into a problem because your vision is totally blurred from all the tears your eyes are making to flush out the irritant. So, goggles are a good idea. If you get those shop goggles from high school, just tape off the little air-holes around the sides.

Then, you're good to go. The itching on your skin from the CS--I said it was a supremely effective irritant--will be merely a distracting annoyance. You'll get through and baby will get her medicine. Just try not to catch a CS grenade with your forehead, and you'll do fine. Sherwin-Williams and Benjamin Moore are your friend.
 

solus

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posh, some have enjoyed the experience standing on high street in the middle of an Ohio State 'disturbance' while 'attending' a gathering of like minded individuals actively engaging in a discussion over the unjust 'conflict'...

wet handkerchiefs work quite nicely, or so i have read!!

ipse
 

Freedom1Man

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posh, some have enjoyed the experience standing on high street in the middle of an Ohio State 'disturbance' while 'attending' a gathering of like minded individuals actively engaging in a discussion over the unjust 'conflict'...

wet handkerchiefs work quite nicely, or so i have read!!

ipse
Urine soaked you mean?

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
 

solus

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Urine soaked you mean?

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk

i can neither confirm nor deny what substance soaked my bandanna i utilized...tho some were not so discriminating as to find a private place to soak their face coverings and ran afoul of the nice LEs who kept mentioning violating public indecency...

for those that are not near olde enough...http://columbusneighborhoods.org/ne...sson-plan/the-1960s-civil-rights-and-vietnam/

ipse

added: as archie & edith hum their trademark song in the background...yes those were the days...
 
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Grapeshot

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i can neither confirm nor deny what substance soaked my bandanna i utilized...tho some were not so discriminating as to find a private place to soak their face coverings and ran afoul of the nice LEs who kept mentioning violating public indecency...

for those that are not near olde enough...http://columbusneighborhoods.org/ne...sson-plan/the-1960s-civil-rights-and-vietnam/

ipse

added: as archie & edith hum their trademark song in the background...yes those were the days...
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/3-8.htm

Wouldn't have missed it for anything.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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During the time of the Madison Wis. protests my brother was attending the UWM he picked up some used tear gas canisters he brought them home. The younger siblings thought oh neat and picked them up there was enough residue left in them to give them to have a eye opening or closing experience.

On a side note when I moved back to the home farm after our parents passed a couple of years ago I was cleaning out one of the out buildings and found the box of them.


It brought back memories of some interesting times in this country.
 

solus

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During the time of the Madison Wis. protests my brother was attending the UWM he picked up some used tear gas canisters he brought them home. The younger siblings thought oh neat and picked them up there was enough residue left in them to give them to have a eye opening or closing experience.

On a side note when I moved back to the home farm after our parents passed a couple of years ago I was cleaning out one of the out buildings and found the box of them.


It brought back memories of some interesting times in this country.

regrettably, the times do not seem to have changed as history is repeating itself w/the civil unrest...
one would've hoped over the years would provide some semblace of enlightenment...alas no...same methodologies just different delivery canisters.

sigh

ipse
 
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utbagpiper

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The point I believe that the OP is making is there is a juxtaposition between our military being banned from using a substance on foreign soil in war; yet our law enforcement can use it domestically.

A quirky but irrelevant point once we realize what the Geneva Convention is and isn't.

If I'm not mistaken, signatories to the Geneva Convention--including the US Government--are also banned from using hollow point ammunition in war. Yet how many here do not consider it a perfectly appropriate choice for self defense use including by both private citizens and police officers? Over-penetration can be a real concern in a self-defense situation, but apparently isn't in a military situation?

And remember, what goes into a treaty is often not the product of hard science or even sound thinking nearly so much as of all kinds of negotiations and maneuvering for advantage one way or another. There is a rumor, probably apocryphal, of the German's wanting to add bagpipes to the list of weapons banned by the Geneva Convention.

In other words, what is banned or not doesn't always reflect what is or isn't actually cruel or inhumane. Fragmentation grenades, napalm, and thermonuclear weapons are all permissible, but a hollow point bullet is not. It isn't logical. It is just what got negotiated among many different nations with differing agendas, social/moral mores, and values.

Charles
 
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